Listen at The Mark Struczewski Podcast website.

Download The Mister Productivity Podcast: It’s Never Just Business, It’s About People with Jason Scott Transcript

Podcast Transcript

Mark Struczewski:

This is the Mark Struczewski podcast. It’s never just business. It’s about people. It’s important to demonstrate care by what we do, not by what we feel or say. And to exercise the power of a growth mindset and a happiness advantage. Do I have your attention yet? Because that’s what we’re gonna talk about on the show today. Before I introduce my guest, don’t forget to head on over to overwhelm sucks.com to get my free guide. 10 quick Ways to Overcome and Conquer Overwhelm. Just go to overwhelm sucks.com. Jason Scott, I will refer to him from here on out as J or as one of his friends. Call him J. Period. He’s an expert in transformational leadership that gets stuff done. Oh, you had me there, J. He has overseen the global transformation efforts within DirecTV, trader Joe’s and more. His team’s unique, human-centric approach helps leaders enable their team members to reach their potential as architects of their own roadmap to a shared goal J. Period. Welcome to the show, <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

It’s, I’m happy to be here. Uh, I’m excited for our conversation.

Mark Struczewski:

Uh, I won’t call you J period anymore. You, I always said that a couple times. ’cause you said one of your friends calls you J Period

Jason Scott:

Makes me smile. So like, you can keep using it if you want <laugh>.

Mark Struczewski:

Okay. And not only just before we hit record, I’m like, is your name Jason or Scott? ’cause you have two first names. And he says, no, I actually have three first names. His middle name is Taylor. So it got really confused because one of his teammates booked this call as a Scott, Jason, and I’m like, is his first name Scott or Jason? But now we’re just gonna call him j Perry for the rest of the show. So I love that you talk about human-centric, because we’re sitting this, we’re recording this on Zencaster. It’ll be on all the podcast players. It’ll be on YouTube. That’s all robots. It’s all zeros and ones, but we’re human beings, right? Yeah.

Jason Scott:

First, <laugh> first. And I, I think that we’re taught that we’re not right. We’re taught that it’s business and that we have to be professional and that, you know, we’re encouraged to check our humanity at the door. But it, it really doesn’t work that way. Like business or business is, it’s, it’s like a legal document that doesn’t accomplish anything without the people that come together to like, to achieve some sort of shared goal, right? So in the end, it’s never just business. It is about people. And it’s the same for leadership. We’re sold this, and I, I listened to a couple of your podcasts, and I forget the name of the gentleman, but you were, you were speaking to the, the top gun flight instructor of one, one of his many accomplishments. Oh, yes.

Jason Scott:

And, and throughout the conversation there, you were talking about command and control leaders. Right? And I, I think to myself, if somebody is telling people how to do their jobs, right, the I tell you do, they’re not really leading. And so, like, I, I think they can be an executive, they can be an a manager, but if they’re employing the, I tell you, do model, they’re just that an executive and a manager with authority. They’re not necessarily a leader. And I, I love the point that your guest made about how leadership doesn’t require any authority. Leaders don’t have to be appointed. And in my mind, immediately I thought nobody appointed Martin Luther King, the leader of the human rights movement. He just acted on his beliefs and people followed.

Mark Struczewski:

I had a boss, my last boss, the boss that actually fired me at my job back in 2005. And I am actually very happy he did now ’cause I’d probably still be there. He went around telling people, I’m the boss, I’m the boss, I’m the boss. Wow. And to your point, <laugh>, if you’re an effective leader, you shouldn’t have to tell people, I’m the supervisor, I’m the manager, I’m the director. People should know that instinctively. But this guy, uh, when my wife first met him, we got out in the car later, she goes, that elevator doesn’t, his elevator doesn’t go to the top floor. <laugh>. I just thought that was hysterical. <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

Yeah, that’s that. It’s a bummer. I think that, that, that exists in the world. That’s sort of, sort of, I tell you, do, I’m the boss. People are subservient to me. You know, Simon Sinek says that it’s not that we’re in charge, it’s that we have a responsibility to care for those in our charge, right? And ne it’s not necessarily that, that leaders are on top leaders of the people to go first into the unknown to care for their teams.

Mark Struczewski:

Now, I was born in 1965, started working, I think in the corporate environment, like in department stores, I think around the late seventies, I’m just guessing here. And back then, you know, all the bosses had their white shirts and their ties, and they’re like, you know, thus sayeth the Lord, and I’m the Lord. And I, I think that that’s gotten a, we’ve gotten away from that. Now. I, I see, I haven’t been in corporate environment in 17 years. I’m a an entrepreneur. But I can understand, I think more people are doing the kind of leadership as Gary Vaynerchuk does. If you watch any of his stuff, he’s like, Hey, you’re the leader. And you have to treat your people with dignity, with respect. You have to listen to people. And I think not all, but I think more and more leaders are shifting to that part, realizing, Hey, we’re all in this together. We all have a shared goal. And if we are not treating each other with respect, if we’re just yelling at people or writing people up or demoralizing people, well then you’re probably, the wheels are gonna come off your ship or you’re gonna sink. Is that true?

Jason Scott:

Oh, it’s not motivating at all. And sadly, it doesn’t necessarily mean the person employing this, like, authoritarian approach is like a bad person. They just don’t know what else to do. Uh, that’s, that’s probably my biggest premise is that people fundamentally want to be successful. And so it’s easy to be successful when you are 100% responsible for your outcomes. So when you’re an individual contributor, you work really hard, there’s a high degree of likelihood you’re gonna succeed. And then you get your first team, and now suddenly your success is predicated on the success of others. And, and there’s, there’s not a lot of places to go to learn how to do that effectively. And so they, there’s this illusion of control. If I tell people what to, to do, I was successful. And if I tell people what to do and they do it, then we’ll be successful.

Jason Scott:

But the, the thing though is that control is an illusion. People don’t just do what you tell them to do, right? People in fact, really don’t wanna do anything that they don’t wanna do. And bossing them around isn’t gonna motivate them. I, I ask my audiences regularly to remember a time where, and we can for you, we can go back to 2005. Remember this time where you worked for this boss, this person that made it super obvious that your job was to work really hard so he could be successful. Just what one word emotion comes up when you think about that person? Anger. Anger. So in that environment, you were not very motivated. There’s a high degree of likelihood that you were not doing your best work. And more importantly, if this boss was dictating how you do your work, it’s impossible for you to do your best work because his approach is optimized for him. Your approach is, would be optimized for you. And so a leader helps people, and you said this a minute ago, a leader helps people architect their own roadmap to a shared goal. So if I was working with you to help you figure out how you would accomplish something, my job is to really help you conceptualize and then think through an approach, not tell you how to approach it, but to help you figure out how to approach it. And again, listening to, what was the name of the gentleman that was Top Gun Flight instructor?

Mark Struczewski:

I don’t, I have so many interviews, I had to go find out which one it was. Okay.

Jason Scott:

No, no worries. He, he’d said something that our job is to share the what and then help our team members figure out the how. And then he’d said, the, the fundamental question then is to ask them how you can help them. And I, I took an issue with that a little bit. Because when you ask people how you can help them, we all have had friends that are in need. And the first thing we say is, let me know if you need anything. Or, Hey, let me know how I can help. How often do we actually get an answer? Almost never. Nobody knows what to ask for. And this is, this is a fundamental problem with the question. When you ask a team member, how can I help? They don’t know what to ask for. But if you ask a team member, Hey, what, now that we’ve established the what, just walk me through your immediate next steps.

Jason Scott:

Just talk through with me how you’re gonna accomplish this. Then we engage both of our brains in thinking through how their approach, not my approach, but how their approach may or may not be successful. And as I see any roadblock blocks in this, so instead of asking how I can help, I’m gonna ask them what they’re gonna do and how they’re gonna do it. And I’m gonna listen and I’m gonna ask questions. And if I see, if I see potential obstacles, I’m gonna say, well, this is what’s coming up for me. How do you feel you might overcome this? Or have you thought it through? Again, helping them architect their own roadmap to that shared goal is much more helpful than asking them how I can help.

Mark Struczewski:

You mentioned Simons Sinek and he, his Oh, career blossomed. Yeah. When would start with why? So let me take that question why, and ask you why do you think so many leaders are struggling with this way, way of leading? Is it because they don’t know? Are they lazy? Are they complacent? What, why do you think the reason is?

Jason Scott:

There’s a couple. I I, I think there’s no one reason because humans are complex creatures. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I like to believe that the vast majority of people just don’t know how we hear about active listening, which is fundamentally one of the most powerful leadership techniques out there. But where do you go to learn how to actually perform active listening? I, in my 14 week leadership program, one of the things that we focus on is performing active listening. And, and, and so we can tell leaders, Hey, it’s your job to help your team members succeed. Hey, it’s your job to help them architect their own roadmap to a shared goal. But how, instead of leaving them with this theory, right, teach them active listening. This is the how. Then there are people that operate in this world with a fundamental focus on them, right? It it’s about them.

Jason Scott:

It, and they’re out there seeking glory. And unfortunately, that’s a, that’s a human archetype. And we are not noble creatures and <laugh>. That’s never gonna go away. It is, it is a, a human nature. And so I think people don’t know how, uh, some people are narcissists and then some people are scared. Mm-hmm. They’re afraid if they relinquish control, they will fail. And as I’d said earlier, human beings fundamentally want to be successful in our relationships with our families, with our friends, and in the office. And fear is a huge motivator. More importantly, it’s a huge distractor of real leadership.

Mark Struczewski:

Do you wanna know how I, I don’t wanna say perfected, but got really good at being an active listener. 1100 plus episodes of the podcast, nearly 800 interviews in the very beginning, I was just going through my questions and then one day I forgot to prepare for an episode and I said, well, maybe I’ll just listen to the guest. And all of a sudden, my podcast took off after that. Right? And so for me it was, that really helps not just in the podcast from other people’s streams or in public, because I have learned how to be an active listener. You can actually have a better conversation with people. ’cause now you’re focused not on yourself. You’re focused on what they’re saying. And I agree with you, a lot of people, they have not a clue on how to be an active listener.

Jason Scott:

Let, I wanna bookmark what you just said for your audience. ’cause it’s really important. What you just said, and I 100% agree with you, is that active listening looks exactly like an interview. Effective leadership looks exactly like an interview. Wow. So I just said, Hey, people don’t know how to lead. I just said, Hey, they need to learn active listening. You just taught active listening. Everybody knows what an interview looks like. So it’s really simple. I’m gonna, I’m gonna interview you, therefore I want to be curious about you. I wanna be curious about how you’re gonna accomplish something, how you’re gonna perform something. And more importantly, I wanna care for you. Meaning if as you’re describing this, something triggers me to think, I don’t understand how that’s gonna work, mark, hey, I, and so I can say to you, I don’t understand. I’m seeing this obstacle. H how will you overcome this obstacle? Again, it’s just interviewing, asking questions to help you architect your own roadmap to a shared goal. So bam, they have a how to. Now, if I do nothing else in this interview today, I feel like we’ve accomplished something great.

Mark Struczewski:

Excellent. Well, don’t stop listening. We still have some more time to go yet. And <laugh>, one of the things is you mentioned curiosity. And I think when I am interviewing people, actually I don’t think I know when I’m interviewing people like you, I’m imagining that this is not a recorded interview. We just re we just did this yesterday on August 1st. You’re here on August 2nd. And I’m imagining that they’re not listening to the recorded version. They’re actually listening to it live. And they’re like, Hey Mark, ask this question Now, do I get it always right? No, but I’m always like, how can I make this interview a fun interview for the guests? And let’s face it, when you are in a lot of podcasts, like I am, you get asked the same question. And that’s why I don’t do scripted questions. I wanna ask you questions you’ve never been asked before or never thought about before.

Mark Struczewski:

Because then I can tell by the look on the guests face to like, wow, this is, this is areas I don’t get the chance to talk about. Because you know, it’s kinda like when I, if I was ever a singer, you know, you love the songs you create, but after like a, a tour or 50 cities, you’re like, blah, blah, blah, you know the songs, I’m not gonna sing them anymore. God overwhelmed. Then you need to get my free guide. 10 Quick Ways to Conquer Overwhelm. This free guide will help you quickly deal with overwhelm so you can get back to making the impact you’ve dreamed of. Get your copy for free@overwhelmsucks.com.

Jason Scott:

I’ve always thought this like, how do they go on 30, 35 years singing the same song over and over? Like in fact, I’ve heard that, you know, some of these mu musicians that have like a career that’s, or a legacy like that, like 30, 40 years, that, that at some point or they, they forget the words and they just kind of make the sounds. <laugh>. Yeah, I, I’m, I’m totally with you. The other thing I think that’s interesting is that there’s only two ways that human beings show care. One is through physical intimacy in, in which a lot is not appropriate in a lot of situations, especially not in the workplace. But the other is listening to them, being truly curious about them. And so, you know, be having, doing what you do, really being curious, trying to have sort of an authentic and potentially unique conversation. Digging deep into the psyche of your guests probably makes them feel cared for. And this is the same thing we’re doing when we’re helping our team members architect their own roadmap to a shared goal. We’re, we’re not saying, but more than implying, Hey, you can do this. I have faith in you. I’m here to help.

Mark Struczewski:

Yeah, my wife and I just watched the show the other day. I, I can’t remember which one it was, but there was these two characters. And the one character says, well, how you doing? And she goes, the other one says, I’m fine. She goes, I know you, you’re not fine. And that’s what you’re talking about. They knew each other. And we’ve taken this in real life. People go, yeah, I’m doing fine. I’m like, no, I’ve known you for so many years. There’s something going on. That’s what you’re talking about. Right?

Jason Scott:

It’s, it’s not even, okay. So when you have history with someone and, and you know them, you’ve obviously to know them, you’ve listened to them. And so then that’s how you manifest care, meaning you’ve listened to them. And I, I like to tell the story. I, um, I, I own a micro lavender farm. In fact, my family and I planted a micro lavender farm together because we love lavender. And before the farm existed, one day I was, I came home, or I came home from lunch to my desk and there was like, like a bouquet of, uh, lavender sitting on my desk. And I, I went to my wife and I said, that’s so nice. Did you do that? And she said, no, Laney, my daughter and her we’re, we’re out on a walk. And there’s a woman in our neighborhood that leaves cut flowers out.

Jason Scott:

She’s got a like a beautiful garden. My daughter saw the lavender and thought, my dad loves lavender. She brought the lavender and left it on my desk. She listened to me. She knew that I loved lavender. And then like, demonstrated care for me by knowing me. I, I, I laugh because we’re told that when somebody gives us a random gift that we don’t understand, we’re still supposed to be thankful, but we’re not Our nature. Something in the back of our mind says, why would they give this to me? They, they should know me. I, I’ve known them for a, a long time. And so that, that’s that again, listening. And then later being able to demonstrate that we’ve listened through our actions is how we demonstrate care. As opposed to, I often will challenge people in the way that they’re treating people. And I’ll say, you know, it doesn’t seem like you care about them and or you’re not, you’re not showing them care.

Jason Scott:

And I, people will often say to me, but I do care. And I’ll say, I, I believe that in your heart you care, but I don’t necessarily think you’re showing care in the way that you’re talking to that human being or in the way that you’re treating that human being. And so, right, we can feel care, but if we don’t manifest care by listening to people and then through our actions, we’re not showing care. And then the example that you gave is when we actually know someone, we can do the same thing with strangers. Meaning if we listen their voice tone model modulation and even their body language will give away. When a stranger’s not having a good day, it’s not unusual for me to ask a, a stranger. In fact, it’s in America. It’s how we greet each other. Like, how are you, how is your day traditionally, it’s not cool to say anything other than I’m having a great day. But you can hear when people say, I’ll ask the question, how’s your day? And someone will say, uh, fine. And I’ll I’ll say back, it doesn’t sound like you’re, I don’t know you, but it doesn’t sound like you’re fine. You want to talk about it. ’cause that’s, that’s what’s interesting about our interactions with people and our choice to lead people. If we are actually paying attention to them, we can tell whether what they’re saying is congruent with how they’re actually feeling. And we can demonstrate care, but only if we’re paying attention.

Mark Struczewski:

Very good points. It makes me think of Gary Chapman’s love languages. And my wife and I, we have polar opposite love languages. So I am like, give me presents. Presents and more presents. Hers is quality time. You can’t buy quality time from Amazon. I look, they don’t sell it. No. So, so when I had, when

Jason Scott:

Presents You mean like packages, like presents?

Mark Struczewski:

Yes. I, it love, I love the, I’m on the way home from work and I decided to stop off and pick you up something. It could be something really small, but I love gifts. But showing I care is not buying my wife a gift. ’cause that’s, that doesn’t show I care what she’d like to do. We just like to lay in the bed and we just like to snuggle and talk. That’s how I show her care now because that is so outside of what I like being, show how people show me care. It’s, it’s foreign to me, but I’ve gotta do it ’cause I love my wife. Well, we could take this in the workplace, we could take this in the friendship. You gotta get to know people. Like you said, that one person, like it doesn’t sound like you’re fine. Do you wanna talk about it? We’re so busy and we’re like, okay, what about me? I gotta get my Frappucino, whatever it is at Starbucks. I don’t go to Starbucks. And we’re always in no rush to go to the next thing. When if we would just stop and go, Hey, you don’t, don’t sound fine. You wanna talk about it? Because I think a lot of people would like to talk about it. But the thing is, everybody’s so busy that no one wants to talk about it.

Jason Scott:

You just said you think that people wanna talk about it, but everyone’s so busy so we don’t make the time to talk about it. I, I think that that is probably true. I think that there are also a lot of situations, and I’ve personally felt this, where as the leader, I feel we need to make progress. Therefore I need my team to be successful so I can be successful. And I’m feeling the urgency around making that progress. And I realize that my team member’s not fine. And in all honesty, and this would never come out of my mouth. There are times where I don’t want them to not be fine right now. And I, and so I, it it’s, it, it becomes a battle. I know better. I’m gonna engage the fact that they’re not fine. I’m gonna take that minute to, to acknowledge that they’re not fine.

Jason Scott:

And I’m also gonna take whatever time it takes to make the fact that they’re not fine, fine. Because if I don’t address it and I just ignore it, I’m actually not caring for that person and I’m not being an effective leader. But in all honesty, as a human being, sometimes my first instinct is how them not being fine affects me. And so I, I do feel like there’s this, this sense in business for some managers and even leaders where we, we just, it right now is not a convenient time for you to not be fine. And so we don’t wanna address it. And this is how it’s become unpopular to talk about our feelings in the workplace because feelings are inconvenient. Now, let’s pause. Leadership is fundamentally human. It’s never just business. It’s about people. And as inconvenient as feelings are, they exist. And if we wanna be effective leaders, <laugh>, that needs to take front row center to getting the work done. Because if we don’t address it, the work isn’t, isn’t gonna get done. Now I’m not advocating people acting like emotional nightmares in the workplace, right? I’m not advocating having somebody on your team that’s never fine ’cause that’s an unproductive situation for everyone. But assuming we have a fairly high performing team, acknowledging and working through with your team members when they’re not fine will take you from a fairly high performing team to like an extremely high performing team because you’re demonstrating care and you’re developing trust.

Mark Struczewski:

My favorite leader in my entire working career was a man by the name of Mike Holte. And of all places it was in the steel factory. So I was oh wow. Working at the union factory while I was going to college. ’cause they had a tuition reimbursement program. And most of the people in my department were diehard union people. They deny, they defied authority all the time. And if there’s a problem, Mr. Holte would know, okay, these group of guys, I’d have to yell at them. That’s the only way to motivate them. And I remember one time his officers in the second floor, he came down the stairs and he said, look it, I gotta talk to the guys, I gotta scream at the guys right now, but I’ll talk to you about it in just a minute. And he would scream at them and he’d said, you know, you gotta, I gotta be there.

Mark Struczewski:

’cause otherwise they know favoritism going on. But he’d come over to me and he would talk to me like he knew me and very intelligently and I respect them for that. He knew how to read every employee in his department. He knew the ones that the only way to get them motivated was if he like threatened them with being written up. And he yelled at him. But he knows with me, if you yell at me, I shut down when I played little guy soccer or whatever, they, you yell at me. I shut down, talk to me and say, Hey Mark, when you’re going toward the, the goal, you know, you went, you went toward the outside, you should have gone to the inside. Talk to me that way you get my attention. And I, this guy, I don’t even know where this guy is anymore. This guy was phenomenal. He’s probably a president of some company because he really got people, he really got people. And the most effective leaders I’ve ever met are the people that really get people.

Jason Scott:

Agreed. And it’s because they take the time to get people

Mark Struczewski:

And it doesn’t even take that long. Right?

Jason Scott:

It, it really doesn’t. I it’s, uh, it’s interesting because I, I think that efficient, we are taught to be as efficient as possible in the workplace. And so it, it looks like the efficient way is the, the straight line, the path right in front of us. Just put our heads down, shirk off any emotions that we’re having and get the work done. But here’s the thing, we can be efficient with things, not with people. Often with people. The efficient way is the long way round, but taking the long way round will get us our outcomes faster than if we try to just push through and, and be efficient. So really taking the time to connect with and listen to your people and meet them where they’re at, which is what you were just describing. Essentially you had this, this, this executive that met the people that needed the screaming where they were at and met you, where you were at by giving you what you needed, which is to speak to you intelligently to hear your side, essentially to lead you. Right? And to do that, you have to know who’s who. And so therefore taking the time is really the most efficient, quickest way to get the best possible outcome with your team than trying to be efficient.

Mark Struczewski:

Funny story before we wrap up the show is, the only time I was ever written up at that job was by Mr. Holte. And it was because we had this, this is going back into the, I think the nineties. Yeah. About the early nineties had a computer system that would track all the jobs in the factory. Right? And my father had retired six months before and they hadn’t taken his name out. So, and he was a machinist. I worked in the warehouse and I started doing all my jobs on my father’s name, right? I was trying to get the point like, why aren’t you cleaning database? So I remembered I was taking up to the office and the union was there and the union was trying to fight for me. I’m like, no, I did it. I was wrong. And, and they were, the union didn’t like me at all.

Mark Struczewski:

I’m like, but he didn’t yell at me. He said, we understand what you were trying to do. And he goes, they purged all the retarded people on the database. And I just laughed at it. But he didn’t yell at me, he didn’t berate me. He just, we just chuck chuckled about the whole thing. But the point is he handled it right. I didn’t like what the union was. The union’s trying to say, well, he shouldn’t be written up on like, yeah, I broke the policy. I was using my father’s name, but I was trying to get a point across because prior to this I had told him, why is my father still in the system? And if my father’s in the system, how many more retirees are in the system? Well, the problem got fixed after this. But I just, I, I applaud him because he did it very professionally. ’cause he knew me. He knew I wasn’t trying to be vindictive or any, you know, trying to be a bad employee that was trying to make a point. I made the point, the problem got solved, but I just get my, I tip my hat to them because he could have done it totally different. But he, he did it very professionally and I really appreciated that.

Jason Scott:

Right on.

Mark Struczewski:

So where can we go to find out more about you and what you’re doing in the world?

Jason Scott:

My book, it’s never just business. It’s about people is available on Amazon. Our book on enterprise project management, the irreverent guide to project management is also available on Amazon. And then I’m, uh, I’m very, very open on LinkedIn. I like to connect with people and get to know people. So J Scott at 120VC on LinkedIn.

Mark Struczewski:

Alright, well J, period, thank you so much for being on, on this show today. I really appreciate you here.

Jason Scott:

Yeah, thank you Ski. Really, really good talking to you. Zoom high five.

Mark Struczewski:

Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of the Mark Struczewski podcast. Before you go, it would mean the world to me, me and I mean the world. If you would do me a quick favor, share this episode with one person, you know, that needs to hear it because life tends to get in the way. Do it right now. I’m on a mission to help as many people as I can. And you sharing this episode with someone would help me on that mission. Thanks again for listening and I’ll talk to you again real soon.