Download Richer Soul Podcast: It’s Never Just Business it’s About People with Jason Scott Transcript

Podcast Transcript

Jason Scott:

When I learned to be open to what I was doing, even if I thought I was right to let go of the right wasn’t working, it allowed me to be curious about what might also solve the problem. And so living an abundant life is waking up every day and sort of, and looking at every situation through the eyes of I’m willing to inspect and adapt.

Rocky Lalvani:

Hey, it’s Rocky. Welcome to Richard’s soul. Today’s guest is Jason Scott, who shares how to be a leader.

Rocky Lalvani:

Imagine it’s 12 months from now and you’ve achieved your major life goals. How does it feel to be in the best shape of your life to wake up energized, excited about the day to have great relationships and friends who support you and propel you forward. How does it feel to have an excess of money to be able to make the choices you want to be fearless and open to trying new adventures, imagine being connected to the universe and it providing everything you desire it’s possible over time and your past does not dictate your future. The only thing holding you back from this vision is you it’s time to take control of our thoughts and use them to our advantage. Welcome to Richard soul, where we achieve our dreams and create harmony to health, wealth, relationships, time and spirituality. If you have not had a chance to listen to episodes one through nine, I encourage you to go back and listen to the framework behind Richard soul and how to create the life of your dreams.

Rocky Lalvani:

You can also find all the show notes for this episode@richardsoul.com. Today’s quote is from Albert Einstein a hundred times every day. I remind myself that my inner and outer life depend on the labors of other men living in dead. And that I must exert myself in order to give myself in the same measure as I have received and am still received. Let’s face it without other people. There’d be no food in my fridge car, in my garage or the house I live in because I can’t do it alone. Sure. I have to pay for all of that stuff, but others have helped with their labor and their ingenuity. It’s not just about business. It’s about people. And we’ll get to that in a moment before we continue let’s review last week’s action step, which was to create a new input from the seven keys of success that Greg covered, and then find a book or a video to learn from and improve in that area.

Rocky Lalvani:

So you can be valuable. You know, it’s funny, I’ve heard stories that if a kid watches three good videos on YouTube, they’re most likely smarter than the teacher in the school, teaching that subject, which is kind of scary. As we chatted about though last week with a possible recession in the making, making yourself indispensable is a smart move. I never wanted to go back to college, but there was a recession in the early nineties. And that set me back to get my MBA, to give me an edge, to make me more valuable. I don’t know that I learned anything, but people value that piece of paper for whatever reason. And here’s the reality. I could learn more on the internet today than I ever could in that program. I mean, I’m constantly learning from people at Harvard and Yale and pop Ivy leagues because they put their stuff out for free.

Rocky Lalvani:

Why wouldn’t you too? Often people say it’s just business. And they use that as a cover for why they do things that just aren’t right. We’re gonna chat about that today on the podcast, we’re gonna chat about how it’s about people and doing right the same goes for your work. You can’t just do it for the money, your company, or where you work needs to know that you’re a person. And if you’re a leader in a company, you need to let people know that they are people and that they come before the almighty dollar. Now you gotta find a balance in there. Question. What do you think of when I say leadership? How does a great leader behave? We’re gonna talk about that today and what it might look like going forward. Listen, in, as we have a lively discussion on the topic, J Scott is the founder of 120VC and is an expert in transformational leadership that gets stuff done. He helps people to define and deliver the necessary and expected results by helping leaders enable their team members to reach their potential as architects of their own roadmap, to a shared goal. Let’s meet J. Welcome to Richard soul. Jason Scott. It’s great to have you join us today.

Jason Scott:

Thank you, Rocky. It’s great to be here. I’m so excited to talk to you today.

Rocky Lalvani:

And I’m excited to learn from you. We always like to start at the beginning. What was it like when you were growing up and how much did your family in school teach you about money?

Jason Scott:

I love this question because the answer is nothing I grew up in gangland Los Angeles didn’t have very much of a healthy family life and we didn’t have very much money. So my, my parents didn’t teach me about money. I, I didn’t really learn anything about money in school. I was, I was predominantly bored, not in terrible trouble, but I basically dropped outta high school at 17 years old to join the Navy, to basically get away from all of that. And really, I didn’t learn anything about money in the Navy, cuz it was like being in boarding school. I learned how to do a lot of things. I learned how to, you know, jump outta the back of helicopters. I learned how to use computers, drive a fork truck cuz you know, the greatest thing about the military is they’ll let you do anything you wanna volunteer to do.

Jason Scott:

So I actually had the opportunity to become a Naval rescue swimmer, but even leaving the Navy. I didn’t know anything about money and frankly I had my first job. It was four years and I started my first company and I would honestly say after 22 years of running my own company, probably just in the last five years, have I become educated enough to be what I call responsible? Uh, a responsible investor, uh, responsible money manager. I just of my own, but I’ve, I’ve made a lot of bad financial decisions in my life just because I, I, I don’t have a healthy relationship with money. So learning about it was difficult.

Rocky Lalvani:

Welcome to the club <laugh> so when you say you don’t have a healthy relationship with money, what do you mean by that?

Jason Scott:

So I’m a gen Xer. So like most of us latchkey gen Xers, I grew up and I was raised mostly by the television. And so there’s, there’s two predominant story lines. There’s the I’m rich and I’m amazing and everybody should want to be rich. And then there’s the storyline where the rich people are always taking advantage of the people that don’t have money. And so really who do you wanna be? Do you wanna be the poor person that’s taken advantage of by the rich rich person? Or do you wanna be the rich person taking advantage of the poor people? Well, the answer is neither except I, I didn’t, I didn’t, nobody taught me what money was really for, which is to buy us time, to really enable us to live the lives that we define to be able to do what we wanna do. It’s not about being rich.

Jason Scott:

It’s not about power, at least for me. And so anything throughout my career, anything that looked like sales, I thought felt dirty. I didn’t wanna do it. Well, you can’t be a successful entrepreneur if you’re not comfortable with sales or asking for money or negotiating. When I didn’t have money, I wanted money when I had money, I threw money at problems because I didn’t respect money. And so it just, it just, without any parental guidance, somebody to teach me, I had to learn on my own. It’s very much like being an entrepreneur except that’s probably not a problem. I wished I had had to solve by myself, which is just understanding money and what to do with it. More importantly, even just respecting money and respecting myself enough to be able to ask for the money after I’ve provided mind blowing services.

Rocky Lalvani:

Ask up front. Yeah. Before you deliver.

Jason Scott:

Yeah. That’s important. That’s definitely important. I’m definitely better these days in a negotiation cuz I just don’t. I set the price. I feel like the price is fair and if they wanna negotiate with me, I smile and I nod my head and then I let ’em know the price is the price cuz the value that they’re gonna get is the value. And if you know, frankly, if they don’t feel like they’re getting the value that they don’t need to pay, we can just shake hands and call it a day. That never happens. Meaning they’re always satisfied.

Rocky Lalvani:

They’re always sat. Yeah, no that’s good. You said it wasn’t until a few years ago. Did something change?

Jason Scott:

A couple of things. So I’ve got an eight year old daughter and a 10 year old son six basically I started 120VC, which is in the business of delivering large global transformational projects traditionally for the fortune 1000. So my clients are like Sony pictures, NBC universal direct TV, the GA most of the gaming companies, not casino gaming, I mean video game gaming and we help them get the outcomes that they need. So the company’s been around 22 years and 10 years into it. We ran into some trouble, meaning I had a couple of customers get purchased by at and T and we were too small to do business and I didn’t have a great relationship with sales. So I didn’t have a sales and marketing team that was effective. And so my company was like a ho had hockey stick growth. And then it, if you flip the hockey stick upside down, it had hockey stick decline.

Jason Scott:

Uh, this of course scared me to death. And so kind of in that time period, like when it all started to kind of go downhill, I had these young kids a two year old and a four year old, my mother passed away. Uh, we moved from Los Angeles where I’d grown up and all my customers were to Seattle, Washington or Tacoma, Washington, and I just wasn’t equipped to deal. And so I spent a long time trying to figure out how to, instead of providing a great service to my client, build a healthy business. And in that I, you know, I looked for opportunities to essentially diversify myself from a single source of income because when that source wasn’t functioning in a healthy way, it put a lot of strain on me and my family and the system and the company. Um, so it, it, I, I started actively seeking ways to generate income because previously my company was basically my job. Now my company is one way that I earn, but it’s far from the only way that I earn as opposed to it being my job or my first child, the first thing that I ever created of value.

Rocky Lalvani:

Interesting. So it’s a journey. And I think, you know, that was one of the biggest ahas for me. I just assumed business owners understood the business of business and I soon found out they didn’t, they understood what they loved and what they enjoyed doing. And accounting and financials were usually not on that list, which is why so many business owners struggle, right?

Jason Scott:

Well, to your, we love what we love and it’s usually the product. And so we’re not really running a business. I was evangelizing a product and I was obsessed with the product. I was essentially an engineer, not a CEO, not a business person. And as you know, from my educational background, not, not educated to be a business person either. Like I, what I was thinking to start a business, I mean, it was pure hubris.

Rocky Lalvani:

They don’t teach you any of that stuff in MBA school. Don’t worry about it.

Jason Scott:

Okay. That’s good to know. It’s good to know.

Rocky Lalvani:

Most of those professors have never run a business. They’re academics.

Jason Scott:

Realize the challenge with traditional education. Although my children won’t be going to college.

Rocky Lalvani:

You should hear the episode that came out this morning. <laugh>

Jason Scott:

Your latest episode?

Rocky Lalvani:

Yeah, we just had on a chancellor of a college and we talked about how little is learned.

Jason Scott:

<laugh> it’s terrible. I don’t wanna get into bashing the traditional learning institutions, but I do think that there’s huge opportunity for reform. In fact, one of, one of the things that I’ve built over the course of the last 22 years at, at 120VC is not just the consultancy, but we actually have a leadership academy and a transformational leadership network. And so though I don’t have a traditional education. I have been absorbing knowledge or consuming knowledge like a sponge for a long time. And I, I learned a lot about education building in the cat and academy. And the reason I built the academy, again, this wasn’t hubris, but I couldn’t find a place where I could send my team members to learn how to be effective leaders or I could send my team members to bring a group of people together to find the necessary and expected outcomes and deliver those outcomes.

Jason Scott:

So in order to provide development of my own team members, as well as consistent results to my customers, I had to build an academy. Um, so I could, I, I don’t think, I think theory is important. I think teaching people, uh, the why, but I is, is critical, but often the theory doesn’t even touch on the why. And so if you’re gonna spend time getting an education, you should learn how to actually do something, start with why you would do the thing. Because if people don’t see value in it, they’re not gonna do it. And it’s a waste of time. So start with the value that gets created or the why or the benefits and then show ’em how to do it. Um, if somebody attends an hour long lecture and they can’t walk away knowing how to do something different, that changes the game for them. I say, it’s not worth the price of admission.

Rocky Lalvani:

Welcome the school. <laugh> and I think some of the things we’re gonna talk about, if I remember we’ll tie them back to this, because this system is broken just like many of the corporate systems are broken to provide good leadership and we’ll dig into that. So let’s just talk about it from, from the beginning. One of the things you say is it’s never just business it’s about people.

Jason Scott:

Yes.

Rocky Lalvani:

Why?

Jason Scott:

So? I I’d mentioned that I grew up in gangland Los Angeles. And so what I saw as leaders and I didn’t understand at the time were people that embraced the power paradigm or the command and control paradigm. And then my father who was ex Navy, who embraced that same command and control power paradigm, and also invited me at 17 to join the Navy, cuz I wasn’t super interested in school, introduces me to the Navy. I joined the Navy. And again, I, I don’t know it, but all of these people in air quotes, leadership positions are really people in power positions and there wasn’t really much leadership going on. It was, here’s an order. And if you don’t carry out the order, you basically go to jail. So I get outta the military and it’s 1996. And this is when executives were still yelling at it and screaming at people in conference rooms and, and firing people.

Jason Scott:

And, and it, it just felt terrible. However, I didn’t know any better and I wanted to get things done and I, I sort of emulated that behavior and I did get things done. However, I am a human being and there were times where I had great human interaction with team members and just being observant over time, I realized there are multiple ways to motivate outcomes. And the one that felt better to me was through influence as opposed to manipulation. Right? So if I were to codify the difference between a boss and a leader, I would say that bosses use their authority to motivate outcomes. And leaders used their influence to motivate outcomes. A couple of really important distinctions here. I asked audiences constantly to remember a time they worked for the boss that was all over them to be on time, to be perfect, to never make any mistakes, which is impossible.

Jason Scott:

Uh, so the boss could be successful so they could get their bonus so they could be elevated. They made it super clear to that team without saying directly they’re there to work really hard. So the boss can look great and the boss can get the promotion. And then I asked them to share a one word emotion, Rocky. Remember when you work for that person, gimme a one word of motion for how you felt about that person. I think that just pretty much sucks. <laugh> yeah. And universally, I have asked this question as thousands of people and they just blurted out whether I’m on the internet doing this via zoom or on stage universally people say negative things. So how motivated are those team? Those team members they’re not motivated. And because this boss generally speaking, wants to call all the shots because they think the only way that they’ll succeed is if they, they leverage control that team is only as smart as one human.

Jason Scott:

Even if that human is a genius, innovation is not possible. You flip that to infl you. So whether you’re a manager and executive and you have authority, you can choose not to use your authority. You can use influence to motivate an outcome. The other trick here is your job as a leader is to play for the team when they win. You win. It’s the exact opposite of the boss. So when I, I, when I ask these people to remember a time where they worked with somebody that where they felt like they lifted them up, they provided them feedback and they were grateful for it. Share a one word of motion for how you felt for that person, Rocky.

Rocky Lalvani:

Probably elated.

Jason Scott:

Elated, right? People have say love, but again, universally positive. So here’s somebody with authority or not. They’re lifting you up. Their job is to help you be as successful as possible. And when you’re successful, they’re successful. What wouldn’t you do for this person? You’re motivated. You’re, you’re working hard because they’re helping you architect your own roadmap to a shared goal. Solutions are twice as smart as any one person. If I’m facilitating a challenge or an opportunity with a group of people, that solution is infinitely more powerful because I’m leveraging the collective by queue. People are motivated. And the last thing that I love about the leadership model is leadership doesn’t require that you have any authority whatsoever. It just requires that you choose to put the, the prosperity of the person to the right of you and to the left of you first and people, sometimes when I say this, I could see the skepticism in their faces. And I just point out that nobody gave Martin Luther king, the position to lead the human rights movement. Nobody appointed him the leader of the human rights movement. He just spoke his heart and people followed.

Rocky Lalvani:

And I think that’s where people struggle. And that’s what school does. It teaches you a line of authority. Do it this way. When the bell rings, you’re in your seat, follow the rules. You can go to math class and you can answer the question correctly. But if you did it a different way than whatever crazy new math does come out, you didn’t get credit for solving the problem.

Jason Scott:

You know, that’s a good point. I see that happening with my kids right now. My son has a tendency to wanna challenge the status quo. He’s 10 and he’ll get the right solution. But the teacher will tell me, did it wrong. And he won’t get credit for it. Just frustrates him to no end. But back to the distinguishment between a boss and a leader, it’s never just business. It’s about people because the leader recognizes that they’re leading people, recognizes the humanity in people and also recognizes the second you tell somebody something is mandatory. They wanna do it. The first thing that happens in their head is they reject it. They think I don’t wanna do that. That’s the last thing I wanna do. And people have choice. They’re not in the military. They can quit their jobs. So if you want people to show up motivated and excited, you have to treat them like people and not machines. And so we have to stop thinking like machines, meaning there’s only one input to get one output. Our job is to help the humans. We lead architect their own roadmaps to accomplishing the shared goal. And the way that I would do it is not optimized for them. And the way that they would do it is not optimized for me. But understanding human nature is understanding exactly that, that I’m there to help them figure out how they would do it.

Rocky Lalvani:

So when somebody figures out how to do it themselves, they have buy in.

Jason Scott:

Absolutely 100% they’re bought in. They defined it. They’ve thought it through, they know how they’re gonna get there. There’s a high degree of likelihood that you’re gonna get an expected result

Rocky Lalvani:

And they have agency. So they’re, they’re more involved.

Jason Scott:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s their idea.

Rocky Lalvani:

Even if you planted the seeds.

Jason Scott:

Well, so a leader has to set the expectations. And by the way, when I say a leader, remember I’m not talking necessarily about a manager and executive because a leader doesn’t require any authority, but somebody’s gotta say, Hey, you know what? We’re gonna go to the moon. And back in the next decade, somebody’s gotta say, Hey, we’ve gotta migrate our aging infrastructure to the cloud. And that somebody then probably should find the right person for the job and say, Hey, Rocky, I think we can do a lot better job creating a strategic advantage from our finances. Can you help us? And you would probably say, yeah, J, I I’m the guy for that job. And I’d say, okay, cool. Let me tell you what I’m thinking. So you’re listening and you’re getting excited about it and you’re bought in. And then I wanna ask you, Hey, how would you go about doing this?

Jason Scott:

Because you’re the subject matter expert, right? I’m just the leader. I I’m setting the expectation. Hey, I think we should do this. You’re like, yes, I think we should do this. I’m like, I think you’re the guy. You’re like, yes, I am the guy. And I’m like, cool. How would you accomplish this? This is the part where I help you architect your own roadmap. We both get bought into it, by the way, through the form of active listening. And then you go off and execute where in there as a leader, did I assign work to you? This is again, the misnomer, like leaders don’t assign work to people. They find the person with the expertise and they, they say, Hey, is this you? When the person says, this is me, they define it. They get bought in. Or you know what else getting you to say no is incredibly powerful. No, J, I’m not the guy. I know J. I don’t have the time. No, J. I’ve got too much. That’s great. Because now as a leader, I have choice. I can ask somebody else, but if I talk you into it, like Rocky, come on, it’s gotta be Rocky. You’re the best Rocky, please. Rocky. If I like inspire you into it, am I setting you up to succeed?

Rocky Lalvani:

No, but what, what do you do in situations where there is an expectation for a person to do certain work?

Jason Scott:

Oh, this is a beautiful question. So I growing up command and control and all about the power paradigm believed in control. And now as a, as a very successful leader, I believe in choice theory. So imagine this in new team member orientation, you come to work for 120VC. We let everybody know nothing at 120VC is mandatory. Meaning if you don’t wanna show up for work, you don’t have to show up for work. Now we will probably stop sending you a paycheck if you don’t show up for work. Right? So, so the idea is nothing is mandatory. You get to choose. However, I do have expectations, just like you have expectations. Team members have expectations. However, if I’ve done a good job hiring, meaning educating you on what we’re all about, educating you on the role, making sure that I think, and you agree that you have the expertise for the job and that you’re excited to do the job.

Jason Scott:

I don’t have to make anything mandatory. What happens is we have a social contract. I have a job that you’re excited about and you have the expertise to do it. And there’s an understanding that for a paycheck or there’s an expectation that you’re gonna receive a paycheck from me and I’m gonna provide a paycheck for you to do that kind of work. So, you know, you make it, you could say it’s mandatory or it’s required, but that just shuts people down, even if they, you know, but there there’s this, there is an expectation when you shake hands and exchange money, but it’s our job as leaders and, and make no bones about it. I don’t mean just the hiring person, right? Person taking the job. There, there is a place for all of us to be leaders. And in that moment where we’re deciding, do we wanna dance?

Jason Scott:

We need to be good leaders to each other. And if we do this well, we’re hiring the right people and they’re excited to do their job. And we don’t have to make things mandatory, cuz they’re in, I, I learned a long time ago that when you hired people and this happened, so I’ve got several examples on my team now where I hired somebody to do like to execute against five responsibilities. Okay. And they came to work and it turned out they were phenomenal at three of them. And really weren’t interested in doing the other two. And this is, this is one thing that probably frustrates a lot of people about the millennials. But I actually admire like a lot, this individual that I’m talking about, thought she wanted to do all five. She started doing all five realized that she didn’t wanna do two of them.

Jason Scott:

And just, there’s nothing I could do or say she just wasn’t gonna do it. Like just, no, I don’t like that. I’m not gonna do the work. And so she was really clear and I didn’t try to cajole her. I just had to make the decision she gave me choice and that it was, Hey, is what the three things that she’s doing really well. Is that extremely valuable to the business? Yes. Can I find somebody else to do these other two things? The answer was yes. So there continued to be a spot on my team for her. And she thrives in her job. In fact, she performs a hundred percent better than two. The two people proceeding that proceeded her, meaning I had two people that did her job before and her output is significantly more than both of them at the same time. She’s great at her job.

Jason Scott:

So I could try to force her to do those two things or I could find somebody else that’s excited to, to do those two things. My head of operations, Jake, he’s been my best friend since I was 11 years old. And I used to try to get him to do things that he didn’t wanna do, cuz it was part of the job. And that didn’t work really well for either one of us. And of course there was friction. When I, as a leader, worked with him to help him figure out and more focus on the things that he is phenomenal at. He just, he’s a star. He is a star and like all humans, do I find myself sometimes thinking, God, I wish he would do this thing. And it’s so frustrating that he won’t do this thing. And then I just step back and I think, you know what? It’s so valuable doing the things that he does. Why am I even taking a minute to, you know, think about how frustrated I am that he won’t do this other thing over here when I can find somebody else to do it. So I, I think help people find what they’re masterful about or help people find what they’re masterful at and focus them there. And you’ll end up with a high performing team.

Rocky Lalvani:

I think that takes a lot of courage to allow that to, because again it back to command and control it’s Hey, this is what the job says you’re supposed to do. And if you’re not doing parts of it, they don’t look at the bigger picture. Right? They don’t look at, is there a way to do this differently? Is there a way to realign the tasks or, or the responsibilities so that it’s a great fit.

Jason Scott:

That is an interesting point. And I’m thinking about this. So I don’t know the answer. Maybe you have the answer, you know, this, this need to be right. Is it, is it nature or nurture? Um, I don’t, I don’t know, but it often gets in the way of us focusing on getting the outcomes. And so we make a plan which maybe is a, a, a, a job description. That’s a plan. You have a need and you think I need to hire somebody with this skillset and they’ll give me the thing that I need. So it’s a form of a plan. Do you agree?

Rocky Lalvani:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Jason Scott:

So you hire somebody then and things don’t go according to plan, but we all know that no plan stands in the face of the enemy. Right? So we hire the person and they’re not following the plan. So instead of asking the question well, but what are their outcomes? And are they valuable to my business? We’re stuck on being right. The plan has gotta be right. They have to follow the plan. And I, I don’t know. Is, does it require courage or did we just get sold like a model that, uh, doesn’t work.

Rocky Lalvani:

Let’s go back to your son in the math problem.

Jason Scott:

Say more.

Rocky Lalvani:

He had the right answer. Didn’t follow the right path. And what was he told you get zero credit for that.

Jason Scott:

By one of his teachers.

Rocky Lalvani:

Conform and do what I tell you to <laugh>

Jason Scott:

Right. But again, are you taught?

Rocky Lalvani:

You’re taught, Hey, I have to conform in order to get the right mark. I have to be good. I have to do it this way, because if I don’t, I’m gonna not get an a, I’m gonna get an F. And if I get an F mom or dad will be mad and they won’t love me.

Jason Scott:

Oh dude, you are stirring up trouble, Rocky. So here’s what I I’m hearing. You’re saying it’s nurture. It’s nurture, but it’s driven by the standardized tests, right? Like, so the teachers need them to be able to pass the test to succeed.

Rocky Lalvani:

You don’t show work on a test. You circle the correct.

Jason Scott:

Okay.

Rocky Lalvani:

Right.

Jason Scott:

Yeah. No good point. You circled the bubble.

Rocky Lalvani:

You circled the bubble. The school systems are taught to teach people to conform. Most of corporations until probably relatively recently are all about conforming. Correct. This is the world you live in.

Jason Scott:

I totally agree. And I’m just thinking like what motivates that? There’s a why somewhere. Right? So if it’s not nature and it’s nurture, right? So to your point, they are teaching our children to conform. Where does that, what part of our nature does that come from fear? Like what, what are we afraid of?

Rocky Lalvani:

So if you go back historically and you think about, we lived in tribes of a hundred, hundred 50 people, if you didn’t conform to the tribe, what did they do? They kicked you out. They ostracized you. Right? Right. And so you had to conform to the tribe to survive. And that carried over into the workforce. But today it’s no longer true. And that’s why we’re seeing these breaking paradigms in the work that you are doing, right?

Jason Scott:

So people no longer need other people to stand watch so they can be safe while they sleep at night. Because we all, most of us in modern society have our own walls. We have security cameras, alarms, we have police. And so we have luck luxuries that allow us to.

Rocky Lalvani:

Well, and if I need food, I don’t have to go shoot.

Jason Scott:

People to be individuals.

Rocky Lalvani:

I don’t need to go shoot and hunt with my group to eat. I just go down to the supermarket. I swipe a card. They hand me a steak luck goes on. The world has changed, but our systems and processes haven’t necessarily changed.

Jason Scott:

Do you think that’s because, well, the answer is simple because we, our nature is the fear change, correct?

Rocky Lalvani:

Change takes a lot of time. We had an episode on change and she talked about, it took like a year and a half to bring change to a corporation. I’m like, it’s a long time.

Jason Scott:

It isn’t in the scheme of things. <laugh> um, and depending on the change and I’d, I’m gonna go back and I’m gonna find this episode. I wanna listen to it depending on the change. Because what, when people say change, what do they really mean? Human beings and organizations are optimized for the results that they’re getting. The only way to get different results is for the human beings in the organization to go about doing their jobs differently. And this is where culture comes in because nobody follows the policies and procedures. When people go through new team member orientation, they are told you will do it this way. And when they go out into the wild of the organization, if people are doing it differently, they’re gonna follow the crowd, not the policies and the procedures, even though that they have been threatened because there’s safety in numbers. So with that said, if you want people to change the way that they’re doing their jobs, you need them to have a good attitude about it. So culture really is behavior and attitude. So depending on the change that you’re talking about en massed across people a year and a half is pretty fast from my perspective where I’m sitting, living, driving change for organizations.

Rocky Lalvani:

You’re dealing with much larger organizations. She was dealing with smaller organizations. But even at the same point, I just, I’m the kind of person who goes, we need to change. And, uh, that’ll happen. Now. Let’s go <laugh> but that’s me.

Jason Scott:

<laugh>

Rocky Lalvani:

And I get it. But I guess if I were on the other side and somebody said that to me, I’d be like, eh, I don’t know. <laugh>

Jason Scott:

Right. You’re gonna challenge the need for change. Like, why do we need for change? And until, until you see it and you understand how it benefits you, you’re gonna keep doing what you’re doing.

Rocky Lalvani:

Correct.

Rocky Lalvani:

Today’s episode is sponsored by profit answer, man podcast. Did you know that most small business owners hate looking at their financials? It’s one reason they may struggle with business success. The profit answer man podcast helps them ensure they are profitable and can pay their employees and weather. The storms we all have to face. It’s built on the profit first methodology of pay yourself. First. The profit answer, man podcast is a must listen to for every small business owner and anyone who wants to help them survive and thrive. Check it out on your favorite listening platform. So why do most projects fail?

Jason Scott:

I love the answer to this question. So the, the story that’s being told is that most projects feel fail to poor communication. I’ve seen people stand up on stage and say this and people cheer them the terrible thing or the terrible outcome, or the terrible thing that this drove back in 2016 or 17, when the, the study came out from the project management Institute was business leaders were like, finally, here’s the reason we’re not getting the results from our project teams that we need to get because we, we communicate poorly. So they thought we can fix this with process. So they rolled out a whole bunch of process that governed the way the teams were communicating. And essentially things got worse. Why did they get worse? And, you know, hindsight being 2020, although I was yelling this loud as I could at the time, uh, they, they, they took teams that were already struggling to get the necessary and expected results and added more process, which resulted in more work to their jobs. There’s no way that’s gonna improve the situation. Getting your Y right is so important. And Simon Sinek wrote a book start with why it’s one of my favorite books. Uh, so they, the, they said the reason the, why was zap poor communication. So people worked on, uh, improving their communication and didn’t get better results. If they had said the reason we’re not getting the necessary and expected outcomes is because we have terrible leaders.

Rocky Lalvani:

This is a, an irk of mine. Like you go to a company and they go rate your experience with our company. And I’m always like, the problem is not the person I’m talking to. The problem is crappy leadership. Where’s the button to tell. And like, when they go, would you like to leave a message? I go, your leadership at the top sucks. You’ve created a problem, but that is the problem.

Jason Scott:

Yes. I believe that the key performance indicator of a leader is that we enable our stakeholders to define and deliver the necessary and expected results. Notice, I don’t say innovative results or good or bad results, just the results that we need. And so if an organization or a team is not getting the necessary, expected results, improve your leadership skills as defined by ensuring we get the right outcomes, right? So give everybody what they need to learn, how to be effective leaders, coaches, curriculum, and measure the outcomes, cuz that’s how you know, you’re making progress, right? When you start getting better outcomes, when you start getting the outcomes you need, right? So scapegoating communication just created a lot of work, but the PMI is funded by the leaders in these organizations. So how could they come out and say, the reason you’re not getting most projects fail is because you have leadership, right?

Jason Scott:

People would’ve stopped funding them, but, but really anytime somebody says or scapegoats communication, and I hope you hear it now, Rocky I’m, I could be sitting in a room and something will not go according to plan, we’ll get an unexpected result. And somebody trying to be nice will be like, ah, it’s just a miscommunication. And I’m like, this is an opportunity for somebody to grow as a leader. This is an opportunity right here. So I’m the leader. And I’m the leader of the person that got the unexpected result. First of all, I own at least 50% of that. And if I take the opportunity instead of brushing it under the table and saying, oh, it was just a miscommunication. Oh, and I certainly don’t wanna beat up the human. That feels terrible, that they didn’t get an expected result because I’ll just shut them down.

Jason Scott:

Right. I need to think, how did we get here? And how could I have done a better job, ensuring that we were aligned and that the approach that they were gonna take, I too felt would succeed for them. So there’s, I hear people say, sometimes you have to let your team members fail to learn. And that is a complete obligation of leadership. It’s it is often the difference between me asking a yes or no question or an open ended question. So if I were to say to you, Hey, Rocky, after you agreed to help me create a strategic advantage through finance. If I had asked you, Hey, do you know what you need to do? You would think, well, yeah, this is what I do all day long. Like this is AB I do. I know absolutely what I’m gonna do. So think about the number of times managers or executives give this big speech.

Jason Scott:

And then they ask the intelligent human being on the other end of they, if they know what they need to do. And the intelligent individual thinks I do. And they say I do because they understand something, but they don’t necessarily have alignment. So asking a yes or no question in a scenario where I’m supposedly helping them architect their own roadmap to a shared goal is a rookie move. What I need to ask is can you do me a favor and just run me through your immediate next steps? Like an open ended question. Just that’s my go-to Hey, you’re like, yes. Are you excited about it? You’re like, yes. And I’m like, cool. Do me a favor and run me through your immediate next steps. Because what comes next will be predictive of the outcome I’m going to achieve. Right? We’ve we’ve all taken an assignment, gone away, worked really hard for three days and brought it back and been devastated when our manager was like, yeah, that’s not what I needed.

Jason Scott:

Right. And then we feel even worse when the manager’s like, you should have listened. You should have, you could do you need to do better. The manager should all over him. Right? I’m like, how did, how did we get here? So instead when I, I ask somebody, is this you? And they’re like, yes. And I say, this is what needs to be done. I’ll ask them to describe their immediate, next steps. And when I’m listening, I’m not listening to determine, is this how I would do it? Cuz how I would do it is not optimize for Rocky. I’m listening. I’m listening, thinking, do I understand how, what Rocky is describing will achieve what I, this shared goal, this thing that I think we need to achieve. And if it’s not, we’re trained to say that’s not gonna work, but that’s an assumption. The truth is I don’t get it.

Jason Scott:

I’m the leader. And I don’t understand how, what you’re describing is gonna get us where I think we need to go. So I’m gonna say that to you. It’s Hey Rocky, I don’t get it. I need you to help me get it. And you’re like, okay. And I’m, I’m like, well this is what I think you’re saying. And you’re like, you answered. Yes. And then I might ask a couple of questions to figure out what I’m missing, why I don’t get it. And at some point, if I still don’t get why I don’t get it, I’m gonna say to you, okay. Here’s where I think we’re at. You’re gonna acknowledge. Yes. That’s what I’m saying, J. And then I’m just gonna tell you what I, the potential outcome that I’m seeing and one of two things is gonna happen. You’re gonna go, oh, I see.

Jason Scott:

I forgot to tell you this, boo. You give me a piece of information and now I have clarity how the thing’s gonna work, that you’re describing. Or when I tell you what I’m seeing, you get a piece of information that you didn’t have, that changes how you perceive the steps you were gonna take. And so you just re-architect for me, ultimately, when we get to the point where, what you’re describing, how when I can see what you’re describing will accomplish our shared goal. I give you a high five and I’m like, go do it, man. Cuz I, both of us think it’s gonna work. I’ve increased the likelihood of success

Rocky Lalvani:

That reminds me of something in the financial world. We talk about process versus luck. Sometimes you can do something and you get a great result. Not because you did it right, but because you got lucky and then that creates hubris in, into that person. And sometimes you can do everything right. And get a bad result.

Jason Scott:

Yeah.

Rocky Lalvani:

But to discern between those two and to say, wait a minute, did we do it right? And we just had unexpected outcome or were we lucky then no, one’s gonna go raise their hand and go, oh, I was just lucky that wasn’t really what, what I was expecting.

Jason Scott:

You know, what’s interesting though, when we get it, what is luck? What is luck when we get it right. We just guessed. Right. It didn’t just happen like a four leaf Clover. But we did guess we made some assumptions. We did something. It worked, we learn. So I feel like it’s not terrible to say we got lucky. I mean, that’s what we’re hoping to do. Get lucky. And often we get it wrong until we get lucky, but we’re iterating. We’re thinking, you know, it seems to diminish it. But the truth is luck plays a role because we just guessed. Right. The other thing that you said was, you know, we did it right, but we got an unexpected result. Could, could you call it right? If we didn’t get the result that we needed or the outcome that we needed.

Rocky Lalvani:

Sometimes things are outside your control. Something happens. That’s that’s outside the control. That’s all.

Jason Scott:

And that’s what you mean by an unexpected result.

Rocky Lalvani:

And an UN unexpected. We did everything. Right. We built everything correctly, but something happened that is a anomaly event that caused it not to go. Right,

Jason Scott:

Right. Something unexpected, something that you didn’t expect, something that you were unaware of. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> makes sense.

Rocky Lalvani:

That’s all. And so it’s actually taking the time to think through now. I know, and I think they did this in the Navy. Maybe they didn’t cuz I I’ve talked to some military and, and I get two sets of answers. You know, one is the command and control and the other is they actually take the time to what went right. And what went wrong in the after report and truly

Jason Scott:

After action

Rocky Lalvani:

After action and truly do that. And, and to do it at all levels of leadership, not just at, you know, the bottom level, so to speak of, of did you do this all right and wrong kind of thing.

Jason Scott:

Yeah. There’s the obligation to dissent. This is much the after action and the obligation to dissent, which means regardless of your rank, you could be the lowest ranking person. If, if you disagree for any reason, you think it’s a bad decision, you have information that they don’t have. You have an obligation to raise it. Uh, this is much more common in this special forces communities, um, where they they’re, they operate more like a high performing team than it is in the, the general ranks.

Rocky Lalvani:

And what do you see in corporations?

Jason Scott:

Sadly kind of the way they try to lead they’re people like they do in the general ranks, very command control, not all of them. And it’s getting better. There’s a lot of movements out there, like the servant leadership movement, the conscious capitalism movement, you know, Simon sins running around really trying to elevate humanity and lift people up, you know, Brene brown out there trying to elevate humanity and lift people up. So there’s a, there’s a lot of people sort of waking up to this. It’s never just business. It’s about people thing. I do. I do wanna caution people because just from my own experience, when I first encountered this servant leadership thing, I flipped, like I saw it, I got it. I realized that I was so much more successful when I treated people like people and it felt so much better. I felt prey to the, if I’m just awesome to everybody all the time, good things will happen.

Jason Scott:

And, and I didn’t know how to do accountability other than the command and control way, which really is just shaming people or threatening people. And so one of the things that I did learn is that cer accountability, establishing accountability and helping people be accountable is much more important in a servant leadership model because you’re not using your authority. You’re not engaging with control. And you know, so serving serve leadership as a servant requires that we help people get and stay accountable. And so to say, I guess my whole point is to say that the predominant model out there is command control is probably still the case. But I, I do feel like leaders that treat people like human beings are winning and they’re gaining ground and they’re getting better results.

Rocky Lalvani:

And there is definitely a shift and, and it is happening. And I, and I think it is getting much, much better. So I, I don’t at all doubt that little by little that is definitely happening and those changes are, are coming around. We actually had someone to talk about it. Wasn’t accountability, but being, yeah. Meaning can we count on you to do what you’re supposed to do? And part of that goes back to what you talked about with, with those couple of employees, they’re like, look, I will be account honorable for these three things, but I’m not doing those two. Right.

Jason Scott:

Right. How do you help people stay accountable to a commitment that they don’t wanna make?

Rocky Lalvani:

That’s impossible almost. Isn’t it?

Jason Scott:

I think so that’s one of another, one of our big premises. You want a good, yes. I’d prefer a no over a bad. Yes. Whereas if, no, if people don’t feel like no is an option you can’t count on. Yes. So again, it’s, it’s about cultivating predictable outcomes rather than control.

Rocky Lalvani:

That makes total sense. Is there an area that we should have talked about that we did not touch on yet?

Jason Scott:

I never know where these things are gonna go. I’m I’m pretty flexible. So I, I, I, I don’t know. I feel like there’s a couple of tidbits out there that are actionable.

Rocky Lalvani:

Let’s hit ‘em.

Jason Scott:

Yeah. Let’s no, I mean, meaning that we covered, I, I feel like we definitely do you have like a burning question, something where you’re like, here’s a problem that I see all the time. I wonder how this guy would address it.

Rocky Lalvani:

So I walk for corporate America for years and quite frankly, it sucked <laugh>. And even when I look today at what’s going on, I, I still see in most organizations that that is the case. They may say that they want to do this, or they may say they wanna do that. But more often than not, it’s a handful of bad people screwing up everything.

Jason Scott:

Yes. Yes. I love that. Acknowledging when people say, Hey, this company is bad. Like for example, I blizzard entertainment is one of our clients and they’ve, they’re in the news. They’ve been in the news over the course of the last year. And so people are like, we, we don’t wanna work that blizzard. Blizzard’s a bad company. And I’m, I’m, I’m always reminding them of the thousands of people that work at blizzard. There’s a few people that did things that were absolutely terrible. But to say that all of the, all of the humans at blizzard and that blizzard, because when people refer to a company, that’s just like a, I don’t know, articles of incorporation. That’s like a, a legal structure. The company really is the people that work there. And so to your point, like very rarely is a company bad. Meaning all of the people at the company, they’re terrible. It’s back to your earlier point. It’s generally speaking the leadership.

Rocky Lalvani:

So how do we fix these bad leaders?

Jason Scott:

We don’t, we attempt to influence everybody that wants to listen. Anybody that wants to listen. And the people who see the things that I say about servant leadership as their truth, meaning they’re not gonna do it because I’m successful or because I’m inspiring. They’re gonna, they’re gonna try some of these things because when I say it, it just makes sense to them when it becomes their truths. And I ha these bad leaders, you know, some probably are out there seeking answers like I was, cuz I, I definitely am. My, my name is Jason Scott, and I’m a recovering boss. Right? Um, so some people will listen and some people won’t and the one ones that don’t, we, you know, we don’t try to force anything. And I, I also think that changing people higher in their own image. So changing a large corporation’s culture is, I mean, the possibilities of actually successfully doing that are, are very slim.

Jason Scott:

Unless they bring somebody in from the outside, that’s not indoctrinated into their existing culture. And then that person eliminates a large majority of the company, but what you end up left and brings fresh perspective and thought in, but that’s, you know, that’s not looked too well on doing stuff like that. So I, for me, my mission really is helping anybody that needs the help. But as far as building businesses, I like to work with earlier stage companies like somewhere, maybe when they’ve broken a hundred million and they’re, they’re serious about maturing where they’re at up to like a billion, because they’re all they have to, they have a tendency to be much more open because they’re not on the fortune 1000 yet. And they’re trying to get to the fortune 1000. And so if I can get them when they’re still innovating and they’re still curious, and they’re still open instead of trying to fix the commanding control on the fortune 1000, I say, we just let ’em die and replace them with the up and coming leaders that are gonna be here long after I’m gone.

Rocky Lalvani:

And they’re in lies the struggle <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

Yeah.

Rocky Lalvani:

And I think that is why a lot of companies will disappear and things will change. And unfortunately, depending on how leadership goes, leaders don’t get enough time to bring about the change, right? It’s immediate results. What have you done for me this quarter? And so you create those types of, uh, incentives that cause trouble at the end of the day. And that is not good.

Jason Scott:

I agree.

Rocky Lalvani:

So we always like to get people to take action. What’s an action step. People could take this week to move forward.

Jason Scott:

So for those people listening that are responsible for a team, I want, I’d like you guys to do two things. One, remember the time a manager asked you to do something and you agreed, you were even excited about the work you went off and did it came back three days later and delivered it just to find out that that’s not what the manager thought they needed. You essentially didn’t get it. Right. I want you to remember how you felt. Because when I asked this question, nobody ever says, I didn’t care or says something positive human beings fundamentally want to be successful at home with their families at work, their teams. The reason I want you to remember this is because one of the hardest things about being a leader is that our success is tied so closely to our team members, getting the necessary and expected results.

Jason Scott:

If you remember how you felt in that moment, when you are the manager and one of your team members gets an unexpected result, it’s much harder for you to jump to a negative conclusion, meaning they’re not committed. They weren’t listening. They don’t care. It’s really interesting how our nature flipped in the moment when we didn’t get it right. We feel terrible when we’re the manager and somebody else doesn’t get it right. And our success is potentially frustrated. We jump to attack. So what I’d like you to do is just become aware of how you felt more important acknowledge when your team members don’t get it right. That there’s a high degree of likely that you at a minimum feel irritated. And just remember that at least 50% of that unexpected outcome is you. And this is an opportunity for you to explore with your team member, how you could have teamed better to have gotten a better result because you guys were in this together.

Jason Scott:

Leadership is very much like teamwork. If your team member doesn’t get it right, your job is to help them define and deliver the necessary and expect results. So it’s time to get busy and figure out how the two of you can work better as a team. And in that moment to find a path forward, because blame which we are wired to do because humans seek pleasure and retreat from pain. According to B, a brown is the discharging of discomfort and pain. The problem here is it has an inverse relationship with accountability. So you want your team members to be accountable. You don’t wanna blame and shut them down. You wanna remember that you felt terrible and they probably feel terrible. And here is an opportunity for you to be a great leader, lift them up, figure out how you didn’t have alignment, cuz you didn’t get alignment and help them get a better result the next time around. So own the opportunity when you get an unexpected result from a team member to improve your leadership, because it wasn’t a miscommunication that got you here. It was crappy leadership.

Rocky Lalvani:

The answer is always the reflection in the mirror.

Jason Scott:

Yeah.

Rocky Lalvani:

And people have to, uh, to do something about that. It’s never, never easy. It’s time to learn the secrets of life. What’s your secret to living an abundant life,

Jason Scott:

Being curious and open to the possibilities. And again, this was something that I learned the hard way when I had a fixed perspective on how my life should be on what my success should look like on how my company should operate. It was like fighting for my life every day, just to get it to go the direction that I wanted. It was really hard when I learned to be open to what I was doing. Even if I thought I was right to let go of the right wasn’t working, it allowed me to be curious about what might also solve the problem. And so living an abundant life is waking up every day and sort of, and looking at every situation through the eyes of I’m willing to inspect and adapt, you know, I, I want my children to sit quietly in the movie theater. They’re not, they’ve had too much sugar. This is my fault. Uh, they won’t, the people are, you know, the people are getting frustrated. I’ve got choices. I could try to make them behave, or I could just be like, okay, you know what guys, let’s, let’s go get ice cream. They’re gonna agree. My day gets better. Right? So just really being curious and open and inspecting the situation and adapting is as I think, key to having or living a fulfilled life and abundant life.

Rocky Lalvani:

That makes a lot of sense. What did you learn later in life that you wish you would’ve learned sooner?

Jason Scott:

The answer to number one is the answer to number two. I do have another answer that might be useful. I learned about the latter of inference, which is a fancy way of saying that often our brain is a fancy way of saying our brains are wired to be efficient. And so it, we, what happens is we, a situation occurs. We have some facts. We fill in those facts with assumptions. Our brain does this in fraction of a second, and then we act, and so what I’ve learned is we are wired to make decisions on limited data and everything else gets filled in by the assumptions. And so what that means is that when I see a situation one way, and somebody sees a situation, another way, those are both ways to perceive the situation, neither is right or wrong. And so often what that leads to, or, or empowers me to do when somebody comes to me with a perspective, I know, I think, and I say out loud, that’s one story.

Jason Scott:

Or when I’m addressing a situation, I’ll share with people, listen, here’s what I know here are the assumptions that I’m making. And this is the story that I’m telling myself, acknowledging that I’m open to there being another story or another side of the story. So that the truth is there are multiple stories out there that we’re all telling ourselves. And so back to does there really have to be a right story? Or can I share my story Rocky? And you share your story. And we could just be curious about each other’s stories. I think the approach fo will foster better and more positive human interactions instead of wanting one, instead of wanting, I’m sorry. Instead of wanting a dude, instead of wanting one of us, instead of one of us, instead of one of us, instead of one of us feeling the need to be right,

Rocky Lalvani:

Isn’t that where this whole conversation started earlier.

Jason Scott:

<laugh>, it’s possible, man.

Rocky Lalvani:

<laugh>, that’s what leadership, you know, we have to be right. We it’s our way or the highway

Jason Scott:

That’s boss ship, my friend.

Rocky Lalvani:

If you were to give an 18 year old, one specific piece of wisdom, what would it be?

Jason Scott:

Success isn’t about getting it right. As long as whatever it is you’d wanna accomplish in your life. Doesn’t Def defy the laws of physics in most cases. I mean, I know that there are scientists out there that regularly are figuring out how to defy the laws of physics, but for the most of us, as long as the thing that you wanna accomplish in your life, doesn’t defy the law of physics. All you have to do is put in the work. This is where grip comes in. Never give up. I see, I see all these hacks constantly. And I’m like, Ugh, these are all BS. The truth is if you wanna be a writer every day, never give up. If you wanna be fit and strong and healthy, work out every day, eat healthy. If you wanna accomplish something, work hard and never give up and be willing to learn from the baby steps forward. And even the baby steps backwards, anything that we want to accomplish in this life, we have the tools to accomplish as long as we’re willing to do the work and never give up. So success, isn’t all about, I try it. I succeed. It’s I fail until I succeed.

Rocky Lalvani:

And that’s literally what it is. It’s a constant battle up the hill. And you just, the, the people, the people who win are the ones who just keep going in spite of what happens. And, and that’s pretty much what like this. If people would like to learn more about you in your company, what is the best way for them to find you?

Jason Scott:

I would say that they could look up 120VC on LinkedIn. Uh, they could reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn, Jason Scott, founder, and CEO of 120VC. That’s, that’s probably the best way. If you guys are curious about my outdoor adventure company called next jump Outfitters that I, I founded with my eight year old and my 10 year old and my wife, uh, and you wanna see us on some extreme ventures. You could check us out at, at, on Instagram at next jump, outfitters.com. Both my books are available on Amazon. It’s never just business. It’s about people. It’s our leadership book. And then our enterprise project leadership book called the irreverent guide to project management, which is all of the plays that we use to migrate Sony pictures to the cloud, all the plays that we use to lead trader Joe’s nationwide merchant processing system, upgrade that too is available on Amazon.

Rocky Lalvani:

And we’ll make sure to put those in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Jason Scott:

Thank you, Rocky. It was fun. You made my brain work hard. <laugh>

Rocky Lalvani:

That’s what it’s all about. Wow. That was fun. I love how we could tie so many threads together and also to see how our programming results in, where we end up. I’m constantly asking myself, what can I do differently mainly to lead myself and others. What about you? What do you encounters with the leaders you interface with? Are you thrilled or does something need to change this week’s action step? If you’re responsible for a team or maybe just as a parent, remember the time a manager asked you to do something and you did it and it wasn’t what they wanted. How did you feel? Think about walking in the other person’s shoes, especially in all areas of life. We need to live in a more fun and caring world. And that change starts with me. It can start with you. As I said, I’m always looking in the mirror to see what I can change next week. We have on Debbie Todd to chat about money conversations within your family and across the generations. I know you’re gonna love it by the way, if you know a leader who could benefit from today’s episode, why not share it, and then you can start a conversation. Thanks for listening. Have an abundant week.