Download Reflect Forward Podcast – It’s Never Just Business; It’s About People Transcript

Podcast Transcript

Kerry Siggins:

Hi everyone, and welcome back to Reflect Forward. I’m your host Kerry Siggins, and I’m so glad you are here today. Today my guest is J Scott, who calls himself a talentless real life anti-hero who doesn’t just talk the talk who walks the walk, and you will learn exactly why he says that about himself because it’s so true. He grew up on the streets of LA hard knock life command and control, and quite frankly, was a jerk when he started out in his leadership career and he had some life-changing moments that allowed him to see that there was a better way. And he’s created this whole different leadership philosophy around how do you bring the very best out in people by listening by, by empowering them, by helping people believe in themselves and by just leading differently. So I know you’re gonna love this interview with them. It’s so funny. We have a great time. So hang tight and I’ll be right back with J. All right, welcome back everyone. I have Jason Scott who goes by J with me today, and we’re gonna talk all about what he does and where he comes from and his amazing philosophy on leadership. So J, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.

Jason Scott:

Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here and talk to you.

Kerry Siggins:

All right, so tell us to get started a little bit about your company, why you founded it, what you do. So we have some context of of your background.

Jason Scott:

I love answering the question why I founded my company, but let me start with what it does. We help leaders in their teams get the outcomes that they need. Like we build winning teams and we do this while keeping humanity front and center. So the idea is that people on winning teams have better quality of life. They’re not answering their phones in the middle of dinner, they’re not working weekends. They’re actually yelled at for answering the phones during dinner and their financial prosperity is secured like they’re winning. And so we are really in the business of helping teams succeed and therefore contributing to people having a better quality of life. Why did I start the company? I, so let me start with, I was 27 when I started the company. So I started the company because of hubris and pride, like I was gonna be the best and I was gonna make a lot of money. And I started the company for all of the wrong reasons. But the one thing I had right, was there was this need to help, uh, companies and their leaders and their teams get the outcomes that they think that they need. But I had no idea what I was to like the thought of that a 27 year old high school dropout could start a company that helps the Fortune 500 gets the outcomes that they think that they need is frankly ridiculous.

Kerry Siggins:

I love it. I love the ambition. You know, it’s how you make big happen though, is you go for it, right? Even when you’re young and dumb <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

Yeah, exactly. Ignorance. That’s the other thing. Like ignorance, like I didn’t know what I was getting into so it wasn’t scary.

Kerry Siggins:

Yeah, totally. Alright, so where did the name come from? You have the background where the name? ’cause I love your name.

Jason Scott:

Oh man. Okay. So I’m an overthinker. It’s gotten better with age, but you know, I grew up like in the early days of Microsoft and Apple and I B M was the 10,000 pound gorilla. And so I’d hear stories about how in interviews I B M would ask people like, what does I B m stand for? And if you didn’t know the answer that it stood for International business machines, you couldn’t work there. They wouldn’t hire you. So here I am 27 years old and I’m looking for a name for my company and I knew I wanted an acronym, right? So I came up with a name that made a cool acronym. So really it was about backing into 120VC. But what it stood for, don’t Make Fun of Me, it stood for 120 Degrees Venture. I’m gonna clarify for people ’cause this is why we got rid of it, meaning business construction.

Jason Scott:

So I saw us in driving these large projects, you know, we weren’t building buildings or anything. Have we led the building of buildings? Yes. But most of our projects are it in my mind, I’m like, we’re leading business construction and if you look at a business lifecycle or a large project lifecycle, there’s three major components. There’s the money, the capital that has to be invested, there’s the thing that needs to get done, the dream, the vision or whatever you wanna call it. And then there’s the intellectual horsepower that brings those two things together and makes them a reality. So we were 120 degrees of the 360 we were, we brought the intellectual horsepower, which ultimately backed us into 120VC and then for the first four years people would send us resumes that were like plumbers and electricians and carpenters and people would call us to see if we did home remodels. And so I was like, let’s just get rid of the long name, the short name’s cool. Yeah. So these days I either avoid the question or I’m working on making something up. You know, it stands for like a 120% or 120 volts of electricity. I don’t know. Yeah.

Kerry Siggins:

Oh well I had to ask because that’s where my mind went and I was like, okay, so what’s the vc? It’s not just V so there has to be a story behind this, but that is very complicated <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

It is, yeah. Yeah. Too complicated. So we’re just 120VC.

Kerry Siggins:

I love it. So tell me, how did you figure out how to land big clients? 27. You don’t know what you’re doing. You’re ignorant to know that maybe this is impossible, but it’s obviously not because here you are. So how did you do it? How did you build your company from where it was then to what it is now?

Jason Scott:

Tenacity and luck. So I left the Navy at 24 and went to work at Universal Studios. I got my job at Universal Studios because my mom was the executive assistant to the C I O and everybody knew it. I was qualified for the job ’cause I was in it in the Navy and I was also a rescue swimmer, so I got a job in it. But then I worked really hard and very quickly was managing some of their largest global projects. So I was there four years when I did the same thing there that I did in the Navy. I volunteered to do everything that sounded hard, which is how eventually I got my hands on some of their largest projects and I just worked hard and I succeeded. That said, in that time I was working with senior leaders. So I worked with the CIO at Universal Music Group.

Jason Scott:

I worked directly for the C I O at Universal Studios. I actually ran the polygram Universal Music Distribution merger. And so after Y two K, I left Universal because I was gonna start a company that was gonna solve this problem of getting things done for all these other big organizations. And I just got lucky, this is crazy. A small boutique consulting firm called me and they said, Hey, we’ve got this opportunity over at Sony Pictures, would you be interested? So I was gonna sub, they brought me on as 120VC and I was gonna sub through them to Sony Pictures. I come up the elevator and I walk out into the lobby and there’s Justin Yaros, the old c I O from Universal Music, and he’s the C I O now at Sony Pictures. And he’s like, Hey, what are you doing? And I was like, I’m here to talk to a guy about get some projects done.

Jason Scott:

He said, who? I said, this is a guy’s name I, I feel I’ve been told this story in like 30 years. And he’s like, is he in that conference room right there? And I was like, yeah. He goes, hold on. So he walks in, he’s in there like five minutes, he walks out, I go in, I don’t say a word about it, Francis, the guy I’m interviewing with doesn’t say a word about it. We get through the interview and he’s like, okay, good. And then he asked me, how come you didn’t tell me? You know Justin Youngs? And I was like, I didn’t think it had anything to do with what we are here to talk about. So that’s how I got my first consulting gig. I did a good job for somebody that went somewhere else. And frankly, the vast majority of the work or the businesses that we’ve worked with in the past 23 years were exactly that. We did a good job for somebody somewhere and had broad recognition and then we’d get calls or encounter somebody else. So 95% of the people that we’ve delivered large global projects for were people that we knew that had seen what we had done somewhere else.

Kerry Siggins:

Ah, that’s such a cool story. And it just goes to show you never burn bridges, always do a good job because you never know where someone’s gonna go and how that person’s gonna pop back up into your life.

Jason Scott:

Exactly. When you play to ensure that your stakeholders are successful, when they succeed, then you’re successful and it will just continue to cascade and reward you. Yep,

Kerry Siggins:

Absolutely. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about your leadership philosophy, because I know that you grew up very differently. You know, you ever, you put it like you’re the exact opposite of the way that you were raised. And so I’d like to talk a little bit about that because I’m guessing that coming from military and, and being raised in a military family, you had maybe a command and control type mentality. So can you tell us a little bit about your story and then how you’ve shifted into this much more evolved way you look at leadership?

Jason Scott:

Sure. So in, in brief, I grew up in a Gangland neighborhood in Los Angeles, which was an accident. I was young when my parents divorced, my mom hadn’t worked. And so she got a job not making very much money. So we moved into a neighborhood that she could afford. And in this particular circumstance, I was the minority. So I remember getting jumped on the way to kindergarten. It was a block from the apartment that I lived in and my mom had no choice. I’m in kindergarten, I’m walking to school by myself, right? ’cause she had to go to work. So I got jumped on the way to school. I got jumped at recess at lunch. This is so silly. I, I watched a lot of tv. I didn’t know how to fight and I had a lunchbox. And these kids, they surround me and I was like, I don’t wanna get beat up again.

Jason Scott:

So I start spinning around in a circle as fast as I can with my lunchbox and one of the kids tries to grab me and it smacks his hand and he yelps and I split. I learned right in that moment that I was actually fast <laugh>, I was supposed to run. So anyway, they chased me home after school. It took me six months to start fighting back for myself. And this is really beyond my dad being just a barking commanding controller. When he was around in and out of my life, this was my first lesson in sort of power mentality. That’s just how it worked. If you couldn’t defend yourself, you were gonna take a beating. If you’d only defend yourself against the medium guys, the big guys are still gonna pick on you, et cetera. So then I joined the Navy and it’s all about, hey, if they outrank you and they ask you to do something, you do it.

Jason Scott:

And every bit of my childhood and early adulthood was surrounded by this sort of commanding power dynamic. So when I got out of the Navy and got my first job at Universal Studios, I thought I needed to be the boss. And I, God, oh my God, I I, I don’t ever wanna meet Young J. I mean people liked him, he was likable, <laugh>. But I just, I’m embarrassed at the things that I said to people. Like the first time I was a manager out of the Navy, I sometimes wake up still thinking about it. And so anyway, long story short, I played for me. I was playing for me and I was really good at getting things done. And when I was successful, then my stakeholders were successful. So my model was, I’m awesome and therefore the people that hire me will benefit. And that was exactly my mentality when I started 120VC.

Jason Scott:

And so again, I was succeeding for me. And then everybody around me just benefited somewhere along the way. I don’t know, nature, nurture, accident, I don’t know. But it’s impossible to be a human and not have truly human moments with other people. And so I just, I started realizing when I was more collaborative with people, you know that sometimes people wouldn’t get stuff done. And so like I’d put the pressure on them and other times I just would ask what’s going on? And I showed care and they opened up to me and then we’d have a truly human moment. And I enjoyed that much more. They obviously enjoyed it much more. And so over a period of time that just became more my go-to. And then one day I realized that in all of those moments, I was actually playing for them first. And when they were successful, I was successful.

Jason Scott:

So the dynamic still worked and it felt better. And the last thing, and this is really important, I also realized I might’ve gotten stuff done when I was the bulldog, when I was pressuring people, they’d get it done, but they certainly weren’t looking out in any way, shape or form for my best interest, right? When I truly led, meaning I worked with people to help them architect their own roadmap to a shared goal and then supported them in accomplishing that. ’cause human beings fundamentally wanna be successful at home with their friends, their families, and at work, right? So in any situation, whether with the boss or the bulldog or with the leader that caress for them, they’re thinking, okay, how am I successful at work with the bulldog? They’re gonna be successful in spite of them with the leader that caress for them, that puts them first in thinking about their success.

Jason Scott:

They’re gonna make sure that they’ve got you covered too, right? So this control thing that first of all is an illusion because all the people that buy into this command and control, I have to exercise my power because if I don’t and they get it wrong, this affects me negatively in my career. First, there’s just a higher degree of likelihood that they’re not gonna cover your back. They’re not gonna have your six. And more importantly, if they don’t wanna do it, they’re just not gonna do it. And with technology and global work and work from anywhere, people can avoid you. So in the situation where you are putting the interest of your team first, meaning when they’re successful, you’re successful, they’re gonna choose to play for you. You don’t have to control them. They’re gonna feel like when you’re walking them through, asking ’em questions that help them figure out how they’re gonna accomplish the thing, I can tell them how to accomplish it ’cause I’ve already been there, but that’s optimized for me. More importantly, are they gonna really understand everything behind how I came up with this solution? Whereas if I help them figure it out by being curious and asking them questions and challenging their ideas, they’re learning, they’re growing, they’re gonna feel very confident about their approach to accomplishing it. They’re gonna be bought in and they’re gonna feel like I help them. So as they go out there into the wilds of our organization, they not only have their back, but they have mine. No control is necessary when you’re helping people.

Kerry Siggins:

So that’s a huge shift that you went through. And <laugh>, I mean, I went through something very similar. I actually hit rock bottom when I realized, okay, I’m just like a narcissistic. There’s no other better way to put it that I only cared about myself zu my five, right? Yes. <laugh>. I was there with you and I had to have this like kind of shocking moment that helped me. It was an inflection point in my life. Did you have that in this journey or was it just because you started seeing more positive responses from people? Did you have to get a personality rock bottom? Or was it just truly like this dis evolution that you figured out?

Jason Scott:

That’s interesting. I hit rock bottom after, after I started trying to figure out how to be like, like the servant leader really put play for the team. What, where I was empty. I felt like I had so much to contribute in this one life that I get. And I’ve never been okay with the fact that it ends. As I get older and I get tired, I’m like, okay, maybe it’ll be fine. But I feel like I had this finite amount of time and I was doing stuff. I had stuff, I had a good resume. At the end of the day, my team led Trader Joe’s nationwide merchant processing system upgrade. When they had to move from the swipe to the chip, we helped them complete it in six months, visa and MasterCard called a flawless implementation and record time. And that’s awesome, right? Except for nobody cares.

Jason Scott:

Nobody caress anymore. They cared for like five minutes it got done. Executives got their bonuses. And so I was doing these things and I had a beautiful home in the Hollywood Hills and I had a fancy car and I just felt like none of it mattered. What am I doing with my life? And again, I was already in this journey of put the people first, have the truly human connection, work collaboratively as a team. And then I read a book co-written by John Mackey, the co-founder of Whole Foods and Raj Sisodia called Conscious Capitalism. And it was more than along these lines, but also much more thought out by people that have decades of leadership ahead of me. And that’s when I was like, okay, this is more than I’m feeling like this is the right way to do it. This is my mission. And so somewhere in this time period, I got invited to go to the Stagen Leadership Academy, which is an invite only year long program out of Dallas, Texas.

Jason Scott:

They’re heavily affiliated with conscious capitalism. And that’s where I came to my leadership purpose being to inspire others to reach for their potential. So this became very intentional on my side to be the best leader that I could be. And somewhere along the way I realized that’s what we do for a living. We’re not just going in and managing people’s projects, we’re actually helping them get the outcomes that they need. And so we started teaching and we started enabling. We realized that leadership in itself, project management, product management, organizational change management, these are all change disciplines, but leadership in and of itself is a change discipline. Nobody hires a leader because they want their organization to be the same in a month, six months or a year. So then you asked about rock bottom. When I first encountered this servant leadership thing, I misinterpreted it as if I’m just awesome to everybody, they’ll just work hard and kick butt.

Jason Scott:

And I almost put myself out of business. My business was my whole life. It was like my first child. I had put everything into my business. I didn’t have a personal brand, I didn’t know what I was gonna do. I thought I was gonna have to go get a job. I got literally diagnosed with P T S D from the trauma. I worked through that and I saved my business in honesty, I learned so much more during that time about being a good leader, what it takes more importantly, how to run a business successfully, how to market a business successfully than I had ever learned the 12 or 13 years before that. And moreover, now I’d suffered from my beliefs, which is I am gonna be the best possible leader and help other people be the best possible leaders that they can be. Because it means something, right?

Jason Scott:

Like it changes the trajectory of people’s lives, being in the presence of a command and controller, which makes them feel terrible about themselves and having the example of somebody that shows up to play for them. That was probably my first step. And I didn’t know it. My last leader at Universal Studios, his name was Todd Friedman. And the term wasn’t even coined at the time, but he was my first example of a servant leader. Trust me. He had many of conversations with me like, Hey, you can’t talk that way to people. You can’t behave that way. So I had somebody help sort of put me on the journey. So that’s kind of how I made the shift. And just every day become more and more passionate about it because I think about how many of the things that we are taught that we actually have wrong, like accountability.

Jason Scott:

So we talk about accountability. When people say, I need to hold them accountable, they’re never like, you know what, Carrie, I’m so excited. I’m gonna go into work today and I’m gonna hold a couple people accountable. I wish you could be there. No, no one said that out. No, it’s like it, it’s angry. Like I have to hold them accountable, right? And why are they saying this? Because it was a breakdown. Something didn’t happen the way that it was supposed to happen. And this is where we start the conversation around accountability. We’re gonna hold them accountable at the breakdown. Where was the leadership before the breakdown? What’s this manager executive’s role before the breakdown? Well, it’s really setting them up to be accountable to a commitment that they’ve made. First of all, holding somebody accountable. That sounds like assault and battery to me. You can’t physically do it.

Jason Scott:

You can’t make anybody do anything they don’t wanna do in a legal, ethical, or morally appropriate way. So we should just stop saying that. What we can do is help people get accountable and help them stay accountable to a commitment that they’ve made. How do you help somebody stay accountable to a commitment that they didn’t make? And this is also where visionary leadership comes in. And this is what we spend a lot of our time doing. We go into organizations and we say, look, I get it, you have to run this project. And they’re like, Hey, you know we’re gonna deploy de and I, right? Or Hey, we’re gonna replace all our disparate financial systems. We’d like a new financial system. And here’s what I’m hearing. You need a whole bunch of people in your organization to go about performing their jobs differently, like a whole bunch.

Jason Scott:

And the reason you need that is because you believe that you need to get different results and organizations are optimized for the results that they’re getting. The only way you’re gonna get different results is if the humans go about doing their jobs differently. Here’s the rub. Human beings fundamentally wanna be successful and they know how to do their jobs the way that they do their jobs. And if they’re doing their jobs, the way they’re doing their jobs, it’s ’cause they’ve been getting their patted on the back for doing their jobs this way. And now you want them to experiment. And in most organizations, they want you to figure out how to be successful doing your job differently. And by the way, don’t break anything along the way or you’re gonna be in trouble. We’re gonna have a talk. We’re gonna put you on a performance improvement plan.

Jason Scott:

By the way, none of these people get asked, Hey, do you wanna work on this project? No. They get voluntold to work on the project and they also have day jobs. And so they’re like, Hey, is this you? I don’t get to do my day job. They’re like, oh no, do your day job work on this project. And then organizations wonder why every statistic around large global projects is like a disaster. There’s another way you go to these people before you make the announcement and launch your project and you say, Hey, we’re thinking about doing this thing. Like literally everybody that would be involved in the delivery and the people whose jobs needs to change, which is the exact opposite of how we do it today. The executives decide and then expect them any to comply. Well, these executives are executives ’cause they kind of get something.

Jason Scott:

They’re intuiting something, they’re intuiting the reason the organization needs to change. But they rarely share that. So if you go to these people, the people that are gonna have to do the work or change how they’re working and you say, Hey, we’re thinking about doing this thing and we think it solves this problem for the organization, right? Like, ’cause there’s only three reasons to drive a very large change in a big company and that’s to improve customer satisfaction, team member satisfaction or profitability. And none can be at the expense of the other. When companies do that, you know, like our beloved Google is no longer our beloved Google. ’cause they recently went to increase profitability at the expense of their team members. There was a different way to do that and they didn’t. They did it the quick and efficient way and everybody’s mad at them.

Jason Scott:

They’re no longer beloved. There’s a way to do this to where it’s not at the expense of each other. More importantly, if I were to leverage the collective IQ of all the people that have to do the work and all the people whose job is gonna change, meaning they’ve been there successfully, right? And worked with them to figure out the best way to do this versus having that come from top down, which approach is gonna be smarter. So you go to them and you say, Hey, we’re thinking about doing this thing and these are the problems that we think it solves for you, for our customers, for profitability. And so you’re thinking, you know what, I’ve seen what J’s describing done in some places, right? But the big mistake they make at the end here is then they ask for feedback. Open-ended feedback. Are you an EO by the way?

Jason Scott:

Um, I’m in Y P O Y P O. Okay, so you know about experience shares? Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Oh, so th that was, thank you EO by the way for that. Yeah. So we go to them and we say, this is what we’re thinking about doing. And then tell me about a time where you worked in an organization that had this problem and then they put a solution in place for it. You craft these questions and then they ask them and you can see from their responses that they care that they’re engaged, that it is a problem. And more importantly, as they’re telling you about a time, they’re actually telling you the things that will solve the problem. And you can take notes. And so once you’ve gone around circulated the idea created demand, right? You go ask them who wants to participate on this project? And the vast majority of them are gonna sign up because as you’re doing this, you can see their responses are indicating whether you have or don’t have demand, right? And then my customers are always like, okay, cool. What do you do if you’ve got one person, the subject matter expert that you absolutely need that doesn’t wanna sign up? My question is always, do they have a day job? The answer’s always yes. So my response is always let ’em do their day job and let’s go find somebody from the outside that wants to help.

Kerry Siggins:

Totally. Yeah. Why force it, right?,

Jason Scott:

It it doesn’t make any sense.

Kerry Siggins:

I love it. Yeah, I know, I know. People don’t understand that the difference between responsibility and accountability and you’re exactly right. Like accountability is typically after something has happened, right? Then you go back and it’s like, okay, I’m taking accountability for it or I’m holding somebody accountable for it. But I think you’re right. The beginning part comes with that personal responsibility and that’s different. That’s saying I am choosing to to be this way, to perform this way. It’s a personal choice and it’s forward looking. And that’s where leadership really comes in. It’s one if you have to hold somebody accountable, I think you’re spot on. Did you hold yourself personally responsible for leading the way that you needed to lead? Did you set clear expectations? Did you have the right conversations? Did you courts correct All of those things. And when you flip this whole around, this whole idea around of the buck stops with me. Personal responsibility is everything. I think it changes your relationship with accountability. But I so many people don’t do that. People just interchangeably use the word responsibility and accountability and they’re so different. And when you do what you just did and get excited people about the project and get them to give input and idea before they commit to it, they feel personally responsible for yes attached to it. There is not this like, okay, well now I just have to do it and therefore I’m gonna have to be held accountable to get it done.

Jason Scott:

Right? They’re in, they volunteered. Yeah. And so I always say that our goal as a leader is to help people architect their own roadmap to a shared goal. And that fir that thing that we just talked about is get, is getting them to sign up to a shared goal. That’s where it starts. Their first has to be a shared goal before we can help them figure out how to get there. You said something that I wanna jump on like a grenade that can I Okay. Yeah, of course.

Jason Scott:

So responsibility, accountability, taking responsibility. This is another thing I think that we have backwards. There are a lot of people, a lot of managers and executives out there that are so proud that they will say, that was me. That was my fault. I told them to do it. They’re so proud to take the blame. But I don’t think that’s what taking responsibility actually looks like. I’ll tell a quick story. We had a team member that got promoted to what we call associate practice lead. So man, it’s their first management position with 120VC. She has a practice lead who was going through cancer and he wasn’t, he couldn’t really be present by the way our bad. She was left to her own devices out with a client and she made some pretty big mistakes. And so when we sat down to figure out like how to address the breakdown, she was so hard on herself.

Jason Scott:

Like just it was so hard for me to watch it ’cause I kept having to pull her back from like the blaming herself and the whipping herself. And at one point she was like, I think you should just demote me. I laughed. Which is funny ’cause she was like, why are you laughing? And you know, my first employee’s still with the company. He’s also been my best friend since I was 11 years old. He’s the gm, Jake, ROS. So he’s in the meeting and Jim Adams, who’s one of my oldest longest standing practice leads is in the meeting. And she was like, why are you laughing? I was like, there’s no way I’m demoting you. I was like, you’ve been sitting here telling me that you own this, you’re taking responsibility for it. I said, if I were to let you out of fixing this problem that would not be taking responsibility, like we got get back in there. Let’s solve this problem. That’s what taking responsibility looks like. And it’s really funny because she went from beating herself up to like feeling like she had an emotional way out. ’cause she saw it. She had that light bulb moment when I explained it to her. And even though she didn’t want to ’cause she felt terrible. She was like, yeah, if I go fix this, this is me taking responsibility. And I was like, that’s correct.

Kerry Siggins:

I love it. I love it. So I have a totally different example, but a similar aha moment with one of my employees, a senior engineer. And he got feedback on a product that we put so much time into it as a company and we missed the mark on a couple things. And it was really great feedback from our customer. But he was upset because he had this attachment to he is an engineer, right? They’re attached to their work. And he was really upset and he said, not having this vision ahead of time, this is a failure of management. And so I talked to him about that comment and I said, you know what? I can totally stand up here and say it’s my fault. I should have been making sure that we had a plan written out to get all the customer insight before we started developing this.

Kerry Siggins:

I didn’t set clear expectations. I can stand up there and say a hundred percent it’s all me. I’m willing to do that. No problem. The buck always does stop with me, right? Does that help you? And he is like, well no. And I said, so you know, what is it that you’re really feeling right now? And he’s like, I’m just disappointed. Like I’m just disappointed. I’m disappointed that we designed something that somebody didn’t want. And I said, okay, so let’s look at us as a company. How many mistakes that we’re a disruptive company, how many mistakes have we made along the way a lot? And what have we learned from them? Where are we now? Because of them? He’s, oh well you know with like these two, like we wouldn’t be where we are, we wouldn’t have pivoted because of it is exactly how are you going to look at this?

Kerry Siggins:

How are you going to be a learning engineer and say, I’m okay with being able to take feedback and I don’t have to have every single thing spelled out to me when we’re trying to build disruption so that I feel comfortable that I’m always gonna get it right. And then he said, you’re right. And I was like, do you wanna be a learner or do you wanna be a person who just has it all handed out so that you don’t have to feel bad if you know something that you built doesn’t work? And he’s like, I wanna be a learner. And I said, so doesn’t that just change this whole idea of where responsibility lies? I’m can to stand up there and take it, but how does that actually help you? And he’s come back to me multiple times to just say how like powerful this conversation was about like truly being able to own his own ego, his own reaction, his own attachment to his projects and how it’s an easy out to say this is a failure of management rather than looking at himself. And so it was like pass the power of responsibility right there. <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

That is fantastic. That’s such a great question, right? As you started talking and like he said, this is a failure of management. I heard Brene Brown in my head and she says that blame is the discharging of dysfunction and pain. Yeah. But it has an inverse relationship with accountability, right? So he’s blaming management so he doesn’t have to feel bad, but your question’s so powerful. How does that help him? What, like, you didn’t have to psychoanalyze him. Like you didn’t have to give him a lecture. You just were like, Hey, I hear you and I own it, but you know what, for you, I wanna be there for you. And I’m just wondering how does that help you? Oh my gosh, I’m putting that in my toolkit. Thank you. Yeah, that would, that was a powerful, powerful conversation. Absolutely. Hands down. Yeah. The best thing that’s happened to me today. Thank you. Yeah,

Kerry Siggins:

Well thank you. Wonderfully has gotten so much from you. So I’m glad that I could share a nugget. And this is such a powerful thing, understanding for people. Because the opposite of responsibility is not your responsibility. It really is blame, it’s victimhood. Because when you’re not taking responsibility, even if you are a victim of circumstance, because there are so many things that happen to people that they did not bring on that they did not deserve, but they still can be responsible for how they show up, how they respond to it. And that’s the power of responsibility. But the opposite of it is blame. Because if you are saying failure of management, I didn’t have the tools that I needed. I was set up for failure. My least favorite statement on the planet, I ran outta time. I did the best I could. Those are all just victimhood statements that takes away your own personal power. Yeah. And that’s what I try to teach my employees is you can empower yourself. It doesn’t have to be anybody bestowing power, right? You can do it by taking responsibility.

Jason Scott:

Absolutely. Leadership isn’t a position or a rank, right? Like I hear that all the time. Like I just didn’t have the authority to get it done. And I’m like, who appointed Martin Luther King, the leader of the human rights movement? Like nobody, right? Yeah. He just acted on his beliefs and people followed you. All it requires is for you to have a vision that solves a problem that other people think that they have and they will follow you.

Kerry Siggins:

I agree completely. It really is transformative. You can change your life. Anybody can change any circumstance in their life if they just decide that they are gonna get that mindset right and they’re gonna do it and then take action. Martin Luther King didn’t become Martin Luther King because he just wanted to and he had idea. He worked so hard, so hard.

Jason Scott:

Yeah.

Kerry Siggins:

<laugh>. But that’s like, I think that kind of fits into your ethos of get done. People ask me, how do you do all the, you think all the things you do and I’m like, I work really efficiently and I just, I get done

Jason Scott:

<laugh>. And you don’t quit, right? Like you, you fall down, you learn, you keep moving. You know, it’s funny, a year ago I was doing research for a podcast and I was listening to all the guests and it sort of bothered me a little bit that everybody’s an author and we’ve got all these titles and I, I just was like, ew. Because mine said the same thing. And I just thought, what do I really wanna put out there in the world? And I think, ’cause the truth is I was fancy and I wanted to be fancy and I wanted to be the guy that was beating the Joneses. And again, somewhere along the way I realized that was a vision that was handed to me from somebody else. And I drive a truck, right? I prefer to wear sneakers. Like I’m really a regular guy and a lot of people give me credit for being smart because I’m successful.

Jason Scott:

But the truth is, I just work really hard, right? Like I, I think we hide behind this illusion of talent and my big belief is that I don’t have to be the smartest person in the room. I could be talentless and if I can share a vision that solves a problem people think that they have, then they will follow me. And more importantly now it we can all just be regular talentless people because we have the power of the collective iq. Like together we’re multiple geniuses. And so that’s where I think servant leadership, bringing people together, but then the transformative or visionary leadership then is about keeping people focused on the mission again. Hey, once we establish the outcomes, it doesn’t require a genius to keep people focused on are we moving toward the outcomes? So this whole thing where we’re taught in life that we have to be special to accomplish anything I feel like I’ve proven is false. And I want to continue people not to embrace this illusion of talent or smartest or all of these things because then you become your crutch. Just be, be a human. Be regular, right? And surround yourself with regular people. And if you’re fortunate enough to have some people that are actually talented, great, we want them to be part of the team too. But it, it really is about the power of the team and not the power of the individual. Nothing worth accomplishing was ever accomplished by one single.

Kerry Siggins:

No one ever gets where they are alone. And if they do, if they think that they did, then they probably have a lot of people. I don’t like them <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

Yeah, it’s a good point. Yeah. And they’re probably unhappy, honestly.

Kerry Siggins:

Yeah, there’s just narcissism, right? I mean, narcissists think that they do it all on their own, but nobody does it all on their own. But I agree with you, I think working hard. It’s definitely why I am where I am today. I just know how to work really hard and luckily I love to work and getting things done and

Jason Scott:

Hopefully you love what you do.

Kerry Siggins:

I love what I do’s I want. That’s great. Every, that’s like my whole, that’s my mission, that’s my passion, is how do I help inspire people to find purpose and meaning in their work so that they love their jobs as much as I do. Because I love what I do. That’s why I do so much. I’m happy, I’m fulfilled, I’m living my best life because I love what I do. And if every single person could have that feeling, we wouldn’t have half the problems that we have right now. Because work is such an important part of our sense of self. And if we love what we do and we have that purpose and meaning, it makes life so much better.

Jason Scott:

Okay, so I know you’re supposed to ask this question, but you set me up. This was perfect. So Kerry, if I were a 21 year old, 22 year old, just getting ready to graduate from college and you know that I’ve been asked my whole life, what am I gonna be when I grow up? What am I gonna do? What advice would you give me about figuring out where I can find purpose and have impact so I can love what I do?

Kerry Siggins:

Two things. ’cause it feels

Jason Scott:

Like such a giant decision and it’s, I get it wrong, it’s, I’m gonna be miserable. Right?

Kerry Siggins:

Totally. And you’re right, you will. But part of that’s part of the process. So first of all, be okay with the being miserable. Like you have to have crappy jobs and do things that you don’t like to figure out that you don’t like them. Do lots of different things. Try lots of different things so that you’re like, yeah, that feels good. This, this feels right, this it feels like it fits, this doesn’t. And that’s okay. And then when you find it, practice it because yeah, that’s how we find purpose and meaning in our work is when we find mastery and we master only find mastery when we work hard at it. And we practice at at it. So practice, practice, practice. Get good at what you do, but try on lots of different things and be okay with having some really jobs that make you feel really crappy because that is part of the process of figuring out what you love to do.

Jason Scott:

I love it. And back to mastery, this is very important and I really think that they should teach this in school somewhere. Learning something is hearing it, seeing it. Mastering something is practicing it. And the first stage of mastery is incompetence that said, go try the job. And if you hate it at first, hang in there a little while longer while you’re learning. And if it doesn’t get good then try something else. But no, you’re probably gonna hate everything new for a little while because none of us like to feel incompetent. Just a very quick story, like a month ago, iOS Outlook put an update that moved my calendar icon from where it was over here to over here and they don’t tell you, right? So I open my phone, I press a button and now I’m in this apps thing and I was like, what is happening? And so I went back and they moved the button and I was like, ah. ’cause I just wanna get in my calendar and now I couldn’t get in my calendar. So I’m frustrated, right? So a little while later I pick up my phone, I go to get on my calendar, I go into this apps thing again and I’m just like.

Kerry Siggins:

Get me with Apple.

Jason Scott:

Right? I was like you, Apple, I like four times. And then I was like, J, you’re gonna have this. It’s gonna be fine in a week. Don’t forget, the first step in mastery is incompetence. You’re just feeling stupid, but you’re gonna get this. And I just let it go from then on out. I was not mad anymore when I hit the wrong button and I just reinforced in my mind, it’s over here now hit the button. Took me a little bit longer than I thought. Like I thought, hey, a week it took me two, but I got it now.

Kerry Siggins:

I remember when they got rid of the home screen button, oh boy, <laugh>, it takes you back. It took forever. It took forever. Okay, perfect. So this is so much fun. I could talk to you about this all day, but we do have to wrap things up. So I do have one last question, my signature question and then I want you to tell us what you’ve got going on. ’cause I know you’ve got some stuff that’s that’s coming up that would be interesting for listeners to, to check out. The name of this podcast is Reflect Forward. What does reflect Forward mean to you?

Jason Scott:

Well, I think it’s sort of thinking about where I’ve been and how I want to apply what I’ve learned about myself and interacting with others in my future.

Kerry Siggins:

I love it. So true. It’s that simple, isn’t it? Reflecting forward.

Jason Scott:

Reflecting forward.

Kerry Siggins:

<laugh>. Cool. Alright, so tell us, how can people find you? What have you got going on? Anything that you want to tell us about and promote?

Jason Scott:

I speak several times a month to the general public. So the, the best way to find out where I might be speaking, and these are when I say several times a month, all virtually. So if your listeners are interested in hearing about other things that may be running around in my mind, they can find me personally at jasonscottleadership.com. That’s my speaker website. I also lead several talks for 120VC and we have an events page on that site too. And then lastly, if you guys wanna connect with me on LinkedIn, all you have to do is tell me or is say that you heard me on Kerry’s Reflect Forward podcast and it would be a oh and you have to promise not to try to sell me something. ’cause I’ll unfriend you right away. Just, hey, heard me on Reflect Forward podcast and I’d be happy to be connected with you and talk with you and answer your questions and help you navigate your leadership journey.

Kerry Siggins:

I love it. I love it. I’ll share all those in the show notes as well. But this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for coming on the show and I love your stories and I think our leadership philosophies are just so aligned. So it’s really fun talking to kindred souls, <laugh>

Jason Scott:

Kindred souls. Yeah, it was a blast. Thank you Carrie, so much. Zoom high five.

Kerry Siggins:

Yay. Yay. Okay. All right. Hang tight. I’ll be right back everyone.

Kerry Siggins:

All right everyone. I hope you enjoyed that interview. Such a fun guy. Be sure to check out his website. He also has two books that you can check out. The first one is called The Irreverent Guide to Project Management and Agile Approach to Enterprise Projects. And then it’s not for Just Business, it’s about people. I’ll include those, uh, links to his books in the show notes as well. So I hope you enjoyed this podcast. Take care. I’ll see you next week. And if you like this podcast, please subscribe to it, write a review, share it with a friend, it helps with the algorithms. And please be sure to check out my book, the Ownership Mindset, A Handbook for Transforming Your Life and Leadership. You can find it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble for pre-order. I really appreciate the support if you’re interested in buying a pre-order copy to help me with my goal of hitting the Wall Street Journal bestseller list. So thanks so much. We’ll see you next week.