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Jason Scott:

The second you use your authority, you’re not leading. Authority is the antithesis of leadership. Leadership is inspiring an outcome through influence, whereas management or being a boss is inspiring an outcome through authority. Um, and you get distinctly different results when people are just doing what they’re told. They’re only as smart as the executive or the manager. When you’ve enabled the team to create their own roadmap to a shared goal, the team is as smart as the collective IQ of the team.

Andy Kaufman:

Welcome to the People and Projects podcast, where you’ll find interviews and insights to help you deliver projects and lead teams. You can find us on the web at people and projects podcasts.com. Hi, I’m Andy Coffin, president Institute for Leadership Excellence Development Corporate. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the People in Projects podcast.

You know, I often say in our project management workshops that they’re actually leadership workshops cloaked as project management workshops. And I say that because so much of our ability to successfully lead projects, it doesn’t come down to our ability to define and calculate critical path, right? <laugh>. I mean, it isn’t just having a project charter. It’s more about how to facilitate and influence stakeholders to get an agreed upon charter. It’s not about having the perfect risk register format, it’s about fostering a culture that allows risk to be talked about and to be dealt with. But regardless of your title, you’re a project manager and you’re a leader. And today we’re talking with Jay Scott, author of a book called The Irreverent Guide to Project Management. Now, I gotta tell you, I enjoyed the book for sure, but the biggest reason is because I just have high regard for Jay.

I love how he thinks about leadership and project management, and I can’t wait to share that with you. In this episode, we talk about his journey into becoming a project manager, and many of you are gonna relate to it. You’ll get his unique take on the top causes of project failure and success, and why Agile sometimes struggles in implementation. And if you have any difficult stakeholders, I’m telling you Jay shares some helpful insights on how he coaches his leaders, and he’ll talk about the difference between a can-do attitude, which all of us think we’ve got and a can-do approach, which more of us need. You know, one of my favorite parts of the interview is actually near the end when he talks about what it means to be a fearless, irreverent, and confident project manager. What he means, what he doesn’t mean, and why it’s important, and even his own struggles. With that, I can’t wait to share the discussion with you today.

So let’s get to today’s discussion with Jay. And if you’re near your keyboard while you’re listening, you’re invited to tweet or post a quote or some idea that you find helpful. Thanks. We’re talking with Jay today about his book, the Irreverent Guide to Project Management. Jay, thank you for joining us on the People and Projects podcast.

Jason Scott:

Andy, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Andy Kaufman:

You’ve been leading your company 120VC for nearly 20 years, if I’ve got that right. But the groundwork for learning how to lead and deliver it, I mean, this was forming in you long before that. So how did your time in the Navy and then universal help form how you think about leading and delivering today?

Jason Scott:

That’s an interesting question. Something I’ve actually been thinking a lot about lately. Hmm. I think I gravitated toward project management for the same reason that most transitioning vets are really excited about project management. And it’s because they rotate us in the military. So essentially you go in, you go to bootcamp, you maybe go to some training, and then they send you to your first duty station where you maybe have a job and you do the job for a couple years and they transfer you somewhere else. They train you to do another job. And so essentially you’re, you’re kind of almost taking on projects, something that’s got a distinct beginning and an end, uh, a specific job that’s gotta be done. And so when I got outta the Navy and I went to Universal Studios first thing, I was assigned to a project. Um, I think we were rolling out Windows 95 <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

So this was a little while ago. Um, and I, I just, I, I remember really digging it and I, I was able to actually help the project manager do a better job than he would’ve done otherwise. And I think this was because of the training that I had in the military. Sure. And so I got recognized, they gave me a project. I started managing projects, started learning how, like really digging into, you know, the critical path and all this project management theory. And I just, I kind of dug it. I, I feel that like operations where you’re just kind of keeping the lights on is, it’s not as exciting as building something <laugh>.

Andy Kaufman:

I’m glad those people are out there, but it is different, right?

Jason Scott:

Totally. Yeah.

Andy Kaufman:

And, and, uh, yeah, I mean, your path, and I’ve heard you talk about this as well, your path is similar to a lot of people. It’s not like <laugh>, you woke up one morning as a child, said, I wanna be a project manager or something. Right? Right. And, and in fact, at one point, I think think it was at your universal experience where you were teaching some of the hype priced Accenture people how to do things, right. I mean, wasn’t that part of the deal?

Jason Scott:

Which is ironic in that, to your point, I became a project manager the same way everyone else became a project manager. Like I was on a project team. They had a critical project that they need to get started. They didn’t have a project manager that was available. They, they couldn’t find one from their vendor partners. So they were like, Hey, Jay, you seem reliable and you, like, you let you enjoy getting things done. So they make me a project manager. And, and, you know, so I think the only big difference is that I started seeking knowledge. I started reading books. I think I bought the For Dummies book on project management at the time, which is, I find different. I mean, there’s, there’s kind of a problem in the United States where most people go to get an education to get their first job mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then they wing it from there on out.

Jason Scott:

So the vast majority of people that become project managers, the way that I became a project manager, kind of have the job. So they don’t seek that education. They kind of wing it. And, you know, the PMI is fantastic. I love what they’ve done for the pro the profession. I mean, they’ve, they’ve really created the demand, but obviously their, their framework stops at teaching us how to do anything. So you really have to go past what’s offered by the P M I and just find what you can to educate yourself on how to really plan, manage, assess impediments and drive projects, which is the biggest reason that we’ve made the Irreverent Guide to project management available. Because there’s very little out there on how to actually get a large enterprise or global transformational project done. Yeah.

Andy Kaufman:

Yeah. That’s, that’s a good point. It, it, the pinback, I can say, have a project charter, and I might talk about some of the ideas, but you show a project charter, or you talk about how to get this thing done, and, and in fact, you’re actually, you’re at some, it’s something like version five of this guide. Right? And so this isn’t just something you whipped up over the last 12 months. So what’s the backstory of how the book has gotten to where we are now?

Jason Scott:

Yeah, that’s a, that’s an interesting story. So obviously when I started the company, I was employee number one, and I was an in, I was basically an embedded consultant for the first five years. However, it was probably three years in. My clients were coming to me with opportunity, and I was, I couldn’t take ’em on like, I was already working 50, 60 hour weeks. Yeah. So I started responding with, Hey, I can bring somebody on and they’ll deliver just like me. Uh, and so finally I convinced somebody based on that promise and realized immediately that it was a lie. <laugh>, I, I, I didn’t intentionally lie, but it’s really impossible to bring another human being into your company and have them deliver just like you. So in an effort to create some congruence, or at least live up to the promise, I realized that I kind of had to document what I was doing instead of the typical sort of tribal sharing of approach.

Jason Scott:

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So I, I kind of cr I created the first guide, um, and it was pretty light. And so we, we, you know, as, as we were working together to deliver projects, you know, we were trying things out. And so as we tried things out and things worked, we’d evolved the guide as we were trying things out and things didn’t work, we’d throw it out of the guide. Um, and then <laugh>, there was a really hysterical moment where we had, we’d created this thing, we, let’s call it Version one Gold. Um, and we put it in a three ring binder that was branded. It was really cool. It came with plastic wrap on it, and we were handing it out to new team members. Uh, and one day I am walking around, uh, our client Direct tv, and I walk into a team member’s office who’s been with us for like six months.

Jason Scott:

And I look at his guidebook, it’s sitting on his desk, and it’s still wrapped in plastic <laugh>. And I, my, my mind is blown ’cause I’m like, oh, oh, I get it. Oh. So just because we hand it out doesn’t mean they’re gonna read it and use it, which meant this particular project manager was obviously managing a project in his own fashion, which is great, except our brand promises consistency, the enablement of the program and the portfolio management later. And if we’re not all following a similar proven standard, that’s kind of hard. Right? Yeah. And that’s when, that’s when I realized we had to develop training, right. We literally had to make sure that people were going through the material and learning the material and then applying the material. And from there we created our program management approach, which was to obviously support these project managers, but also through their training journey in inspect what we expect mm-hmm.

Jason Scott:

Um, so it just, it sort of evolved. And then our clients started asking us to provide training to their project managers. So our training became a product. And yeah, so that’s how we went from services, which we continued to do today. ’cause it drives credibility to our training curriculum to training and then enablement, which is a step past consulting. ’cause obviously we’re in the outcomes business. It’s not, it’s not exciting for me to provide organizations with advice <laugh>. It’s really exciting to help them figure out where they want to go mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then work with them to stick the change or land the change.

Andy Kaufman:

I love that. Just from your perspective and experience today, what, what are some of the top causes of project success rates being so dismal, particularly for enterprise wide initiatives? I mean, now this could be a hour long discussion, but just what are, what are the, some of the common themes you see that just cause projects to struggle?

Jason Scott:

This is an easy, an easy question. I, I, I wrote, I wrote it down a while back. So from, from my perspective, and this is just my opinion, it, it’s none of the things that I think are typically espoused. So there, you know, there’s a big paper that came out from the P m I four or five years ago that talked about how most projects failed due to poor communication. I essentially, I, I think that’s kind of interesting in that we communicate as leaders to lead, right? Nobody hires a leader because they want the organization to be the same in a, a week, a month, a year, <laugh>. And so, you know, if ultimately projects are failing, meaning organizations aren’t getting the outcomes that they want, and they blame it on communication, well, so what do you do? You proselytize communication. You create more rigor, <laugh> in an environment where people are already struggling, right?

Jason Scott:

And, and so you’ve, you’ve, you’ve essentially scapegoated communication instead of saying, Hey, we kind of suck at this leadership thing. Let’s work on our leadership. So if they were to work on improving their outcomes, ak their leadership, they’ll improve their leadership. If they work on improving their communication, they’ll probably improve their communication. But it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re gonna get better outcomes. <laugh>. So my perspective, projects fail for seven reasons. Seven, the law of physics, six, self-interest, five, confirmation, biased, cognitive dissonance, apathy, ego, and unreasonable expectations. Mm-hmm. It’s all human based. Yeah. We, we essentially get in our own ways, and it’s a leader’s job to help people get out of their own way mm-hmm. And enable that to, to create their own roadmap to a shared goal.

Andy Kaufman:

And which is why a, a fair amount of your book is a leadership book cloaked as a project management book <laugh>, you know, I mean, it, it’s a theme that, that, uh, kind of is woven throughout the entire thing. Would you agree there’s aspects of that throughout the book?

Jason Scott:

Absolutely. A hundred percent. I I’m sure that you’ve heard some project managers referred to as weather reporters or note takers mm-hmm. <affirmative> at, at the end of the day, I, I believe that leadership is a fundamental change discipline. I’m sure you’ve heard that leaders aren’t made, they’re born. I think that there’s some truth to that in the sense that we’re all kind of born with the aptitude that we’re born with. However, leadership really is a lot about understanding human nature, empathy, and working with people where they’re at. And so there are a lot of techniques that can be taught that can improve an individual’s ability to be a leader, a more effective leader. And so you can, you can hand somebody a work plan. You can teach them how to calculate critical path. You can teach them how to gather information, but if you don’t teach them how to use that information to lead a, to unite and lead a group of people to accomplish a transformational outcome, like you’re just, you’re just not gonna get there. You people need help, especially a group of people coming together to accomplish something complex. And that’s where leadership comes in. So you can’t, I don’t think, uh, you can’t write a book on, on how to deliver large, complex, global transformation projects without inserting a ton of leadership techniques around the block and tackling. Yeah. Uh, that, you know, provided by that PMI framework.

Andy Kaufman:

Well said, what is it that people can tend to get wrong about Agile? And how do you leverage agile values and principles in your work at 120VC?

Jason Scott:

Okay. So let’s start with how we leverage, uh, agile principles. So when I first saw this, I, I recognized it immediately for what I think it is, which is really a servant leadership framework, standard paradigm. Uh, the manifesto itself is 73 words. The, the principles are all about working with human nature. They’re, they’re not prescriptive in what to do except for how you engage with people. And so it was really easy to take those and apply them to an enterprise project management framework, because really it’s about looking at what’s going on and creating the most value that you, you can in a project. And not being rigid, which is, I think, the failure of traditional project management. Traditional project management got a bad name. Um, because they, they, it, they, one, they weren’t realizing the value prop. They weren’t heading, they weren’t hitting targets on time and on budget.

Jason Scott:

Um, and there’s, there’s, that has a lot to do with that. Everybody looked at traditional project management as a panacea and didn’t recognize that you can’t hit, you can’t get on time and on budget without acknowledging you need to change management aspect as well as a project team demand management aspect. So organizations invested a ton of money in this traditional project management and fun. The functional teams, or the matrix teams that were contributing to these projects were making commitments to completion dates without visibility, and as to how they were, how they were already committed across projects. Um, but that’s, I probably just nerded out.

Andy Kaufman:

Actually, no. We like nerding out here, so that’s not a problem at all.

Jason Scott:

So then Agile comes on the scene and it’s sold as this panacea <laugh>. And, which I think is hysterical because everybody over the age of 25 knows that there’s no one size fits all, solves all problems. Um, but people, ex executives were kind of desperate really for, for an answer to their ability to hit deadlines, create value, take advantage of market opportunities. So they jumped on this an agile bandwagon. And to answer your second question, that’s, that’s the failure. That’s where Agile falls down, is when you look in an organization, it, it is an, an organization isn’t made up of a, a single full stack functioning team. In fact, it’s made up of multiple, uh, functional teams. And you’re gonna have initiatives where, where Agile or really the application of Agile through a Scrum or a DevOps is, is a, is gonna create the most value.

Jason Scott:

And that’s, that’s on a dedicated full stack team where you’ve got, you, you’ve got the, the subject matter experts that you need to work together on a daily basis to create value quickly for the business. However, when you look at an, at an organizational’s needs to achieve that, that business agility, which is really the goal of Agile, the goal, when an organization says we want to be agile, they don’t mean like Scrum <laugh>. They mean they want to achieve business agility. They want to be able to quickly pivot and take advantage of market opportunities or, or ward off threats, right? Right. So you just being agile, implementing Scrum or DevOps or the Spotify model isn’t gonna help you when you’ve got cross-functional team initiatives. Because without the, let’s call it the critical path model or an enterprise project management approach, your queuing theory applies. Meaning you’ve got one functional team, they finished something, and it’s gotta then get thrown over the fence to another functional team if they, if they haven’t already groomed it into their backlog.

Jason Scott:

And by the way, they can’t ’cause they don’t know when it’s gonna be delivered. Hmm. If they haven’t already, uh, worked it into sprint planning for the next sprint, it’s gonna sit there and therefore it’s like last in, last out is the least efficient way. So in that scenario, you take a project manager who’s got a work plan, who’s, who’s forecasting the impact of progress, lack of progress, uh, and blockers or, or impediments, if you will, to a functional piece of work. And as, as literally things change, meaning, hey, it’s gonna be done on this date, or it’s not gonna be done on this date. They can keep the other team that’s waiting for it apprised. So it makes it into the backlog, grooming at the absolute most appropriate time to drive it forward as aggressively as possible. And then you’ve got change management, both agile teams as well as enterprise project management teams have a need to get near a hundred percent user adoption on day one.

Jason Scott:

Because organizations don’t invest money in new functionality or in, or change to have adoption take a long time. In fact, they really needed people to be using the system that they’re implementing when they, when they’ve envisioned it. Right. That that’s never gonna be the case because they have to build it and then deliver it. Um, and if adoption flounders, I mean, they might miss the opportunity that they were investing in altogether. And I, I think the other area where Agile falls down is, it sounds cozy. It sounds like we should all just hug and high five <laugh>. And it’s cool. And we’ve got a foosball table and <laugh>, we play pinging pong on breaks. When the, the, the reality of of, of Agile or Scrum or a DevOps is organizations are asking teams to drive change faster. Right. And when you ask for more change, you’re, you’re asking for more disruption because change is disruptive.

Jason Scott:

You’re asking people to experiment and break things, right? So you can’t, you can’t go, you can’t ask for more change and expect things to run smoothly. And that’s, that’s sort of the big rub organiza when organizations move from this command and control, which is slow and steady. And, and the people that get promoted are the people that, that pretend like, or at least are perceived to have everything under control, they then shift and they, they want people to move fast and break things. Although that’s not what they’re saying. They’re saying they want them to move fast and create value fast, but they’re still saying don’t break things. So then people aren’t safe to experiment. So in order to truly achieve business agility, teams have to feel safe to experiment. And where an organization is culturally predisposed to wanting to figure out who broke it, <laugh> people are not gonna risk looking bad. So you don’t see agility.

Andy Kaufman:

We had, uh, Jeff Sutherland on, and he is talking about Scrum, and he goes, to me, people think it’s a methodology. And I think you address that in the book as well, of stop thinking about, well, if I do these things, I’ll be agile and more, it’s more, much more the mindset and, and, and, um, the, the leadership and the people components and the, the transparency and realizing all the changes involved, it’s, it’s just much more than saying, alright, we’re doing daily standups, so we must be agile. Right?

Jason Scott:

Right. Absolutely. I mean, look, it, it’s not agile if it’s just a process, right? Just like enterprise project management. There you go. You’re, you’re not actually achieving the value proposition if you’re just following the rules. You create a framework, right? Mm-hmm. And then you apply a philosophy to it. And so what I tell people is, if you don’t have a framework, you can’t quality assure it, and you can’t measure it. So you need a framework. Once you have a framework, if the framework ever gets in the way of achieving the value that’s intended, break the rules.

Andy Kaufman:

All right. There you go. <laugh>. That’s good. That’s good. Uh, that’s good. You know, I’d love to pass some scenarios by Jay that our listeners have mentioned over the years. Let, let’s say one of your team members at 120VC, they’re leading a project and let’s say with a very difficult stakeholder Yeah. Maybe that stakeholder’s openly critical about the project in meetings and unresponsive to work that’s assigned to them. And I realize this all depends on the, on the situation. But in general, what are some examples of ways you coach your leaders to deal with difficult stakeholders?

Jason Scott:

Well, I think the first thing to recognize is to pause. And instead of viewing that individual as a difficult stakeholder, is to really consider what’s driving that behavior. And generally speaking it’s fear. What is it that is making them feel like they need to shut this down? They need to sneak negatively about the project. How is this project impacting them negatively? Right? So it, it’s much easier to work with or maybe turn somebody into a champion for what you’re doing if you’re not looking at them as a problem. So the first thing is don’t look at them as a problem. Look at them as a human being, right. Consider what might be going on on their side of the fence. And then go find out, like engage them, approach them and say, Hey, listen, I, you’re clearly vocal about how these things are broken. You’re a, you’re a, a stake, you’re a major stakeholder in this project.

Jason Scott:

I want, my job is to ensure that we are all successful. And in order to do that, I’d really like to understand your perspective. Would you mind spending some time with me? Yeah. So engage them. It’s, it’s really the, the first piece of advice I’d give anybody, don’t send them an email. Don’t call them. Like, get up, go, go meet them face-to-face. And again, if, if you meet them face-to-face and really deep down inside you’re feeling like you’re just doing that because it’s better and you’re supposed to, but you’re viewing them as a problem, they’re gonna pick that up from your body language. So you really have to get your, your attitude right. You really have to be coming from a place of inquiry, curiosity, empathy. Right? And that will come off in your inquiry when you say them, I really wanna understand, I’m really here to ensure that we all succeed. If that’s your truth, they’ll open up to you.

Andy Kaufman:

Let, I mean, let’s say they truly are dragging their feet on things or just not being responsive. Maybe it’d be a better way of saying it. Uh, your, your, I think you call it the five by five, is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you explain that one?

Jason Scott:

Yeah. So it’s funny that you pull the five by five out. So this is the one that when we, I teach a 14 week project leadership class, or course it’s called the 120VC Project Leadership Course. Um, and every time we come to the piece about the five by five, 50% of the students are like, I would never do that. <laugh>, uh, the other 50% of the students take it in context to all the other material on leadership. ’cause it, you know, it’s, it’s sort of at the end of a, a chapter that’s focused on

Andy Kaufman:

Just communication as leadership overall

Jason Scott:

Communication, yeah. Communication as leadership, which is about engaging people, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so the, the five by five is really the squeaky wheel. People, especially on large global projects in a matrix environment, they have competing priorities. And gen people are, and managers are terrible about helping people actually do what they’re supposed to do with the prioritization. Meaning they’ll say, Hey, this is your first, second, third, fourth, fifth priority. Uh, but nobody ever really feels safe not to get to the fifth and sixth priorities, which is the point of prioritization. <laugh> like, Hey, tackle this first, and if you don’t get to the bottom of the list, it’s okay. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, people have a tendency to wanna hold on to it, and they try to get to it, and they wanna work on all six priorities at the same time, which is the opposite of what you’re supposed to do with prioritization <laugh>.

Jason Scott:

So the, the, the five by five is when you’ve got a critical impediment or critical blocker on a project, and you, you obviously, you try to get ahold of somebody, you reach out to them, you leave a message. Um, my philosophy is our, you know, we’re there to really move our project forward as aggressively as possible, right? So if I’m gonna call somebody and try to get ahold of them and I miss them, I’m all, I’m just, I’m gonna send them an email, right? Um, and let them know, Hey, I just left you a message. We’ve got this critical blocker on the project. Here’s why I need your help. And obviously I’m calling the person based on their role on the project. I’m calling the person that I think is the right person to deal with a blocker. Um, and then as some time goes by, maybe an hour, I’m gonna realize they haven’t gotten back to me.

Jason Scott:

Now, what did I say at the beginning of this? It’s a critical impediment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I’m gonna call them again, and then I’m gonna go into my send items and I’m gonna reply to creating this email chain, and I’m gonna send ’em another email, say, Hey, you know, we’ve got this critical impediment. And the, so the idea is that you send, you leave five messages and you send five emails within a 24 hour period of time. And what, and, and by the way, there, this isn’t something that will surprise them at the beginning of every project we go through, um, our comms plan, and that includes the five by five. So we let people know, Hey, listen, I get it. You’re busy. You’re gonna be working on a ton of other things. If something critical comes up and I need you and I can’t reach you, I’m gonna do this five by five thing.

Jason Scott:

It’s very similar to the approach our family members take when they’ve got an emergency. Have you ever, like, you know, they’ll call you and you send in a voicemail ’cause you’re in a meeting. And then so they call you right back and you send in a voicemail ’cause you’re in a meeting and they call you right back, and you’re like, Ooh, this must be an emergency. So you say, excuse me, you get up, you leave the room, you take the call, you’re not mad. Right? You, we recognize that as an unspoken emergency need to get ahold of you right now protocol. Right? It’s the same with the five by five. And it, and so many people look at that like, oh, he’s trying to create a paper trail to birth me <laugh>. No, no, no, no, no, no. What I am doing though, is making sure that I am trying to reach you.

Jason Scott:

Because if I can’t get you after five, I got this critical impediment, I’m gonna go to that person’s manager and say, Hey, they’re probably, I hope everything’s okay. They’re probably working on, you know, something more critical than this. Here’s what I’ve done to try to get ahold of them. Because often escalations are premature managers get this all the time where a project manager will come in their office and say, Hey, you know, I’ve got this critical thing on a project I try to get ahold of so and so. And the manager will say like, how’d you try to get in touch with ’em? Oh, I left him a message yesterday. That’s not really trying to get in touch with somebody. Yeah. Right. Um, so the, the five by five really is just the squeaky wheel. It should be approached super empathetically, the, with the assumption that if they’re not getting back to you, uh, you know, they’re in labor

Andy Kaufman:

<laugh>. Right.

Jason Scott:

Which happens once actually, that’s your story. That’s, uh, they’re in labor or they’re, they’re working on something that’s a higher priority. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Kaufman:

I, yeah, I, I I thought it was a brilliant idea because just like in the, uh, the five why’s idea, you don’t always have to go five why’s. And my guess is you don’t always have to go five messages. You know, sometimes after the second message, it happens. But the point is, don’t give up after the first send <laugh>. Right. That’s how I took it.

Jason Scott:

Exactly. And I’ve never had to go five. Yeah,

Andy Kaufman:

Right. Exactly. But it just gets the point across. If it’s that critical, you know, don’t invoke more delay just by kind of waiting two days for the person to get back. I just thought it was one of the many practical ideas in the book. If we ask, let’s say the tens of thousands of people listening to us, if, if we could actually see it, if we said, raise your hand if you have a can-do attitude, you do this exercise. Right? I’m guessing that most people would, would they’d raise their hand? And you mentioned in the book that there can be a difference between saying we have a can-do attitude and demonstrating that. Would you tell us about that? Oh,

Jason Scott:

Yeah. I mean, who wouldn’t raise their hand <laugh> if that’s, if they have a can-do attitude? Everybody, I do this in huge audiences. Hey, raise your hand if you have a can-do attitude. Everybody raises their hand <laugh>. But, but I, I work in these giant corporations where their actions don’t match what they’re, they’re saying their attitude is. Right. And so the, we, I don’t preach can-do attitude. I, I preach can-do approach. So it’s really important for people to consider how their actions communicate their can do. Um, and so I can give a multitude of examples on what can do isn’t <laugh>, um, when it, it’s, people don’t wanna let any people, anybody down. I think in business, and this, I hope, you know, people there some portion of your audience is probably gonna be like, that’s not me. But what I find is in business, especially in organizations where people don’t feel safe, the goal is to look good.

Jason Scott:

And if they can’t look good, they don’t wanna look bad. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so when, when confronted with an assignment, which by the way is in that moment new and always daunting because the individual hasn’t had time to think through how they’re gonna accomplish it. So the truth is they don’t know how they’re gonna accomplish it. So what happens is their brain starts running through all the ways, or all the obstacles, all the ways this assignment can go wrong. And we feel compelled to share that with the requester, the executive stakeholder. And what happens in that moment is we, the requester is saying, I have this vision, and the individual that’s, that’s receiving this assignment is saying that’s not gonna work. Uh, and it just creates this impression from the, the, the requester that you, you’re, you’re basically saying, I can’t do this. So if they let you leave the room, what degree of confidence are they gonna have that this is gonna get accomplished?

Jason Scott:

The truth is, nine times out of 10, when people communicate the impossibility of the assignment to the requester, they go away and they get it done. So what good is anybody doing in that moment, speaking back the impossibilities to the individual that by the way, they’re gonna leave alone, they’re gonna speak back, this won’t work. And then they’re gonna leave, leave them to, to marinate on this, the impossibility of the thing that they’ve asked for. They’re then gonna go get with the project team and try to work it out. And then this funny thing happens. Sometimes this executive or this requester gets so insecure because they’ve been told what they’ve asked for is impossible. And obviously what they’re asking for is based on some business opportunity or obstacle that they need solved. They like start encroaching on your meetings. They wanna participate, they want to be involved in the solutioning.

Jason Scott:

And then we’re gonna call that person a micromanager. <laugh>, well, we set them up to micromanage. We, we basically told them that what they just asked for won’t work. A k a, they’re gonna fail. They’re not gonna get their bonus. Yeah. They’re gonna look bad. So can-do approach is simply making sure that you’ve got alignment and clear expectations. When somebody’s asking you to accomplish something, engage, ask questions, really understand what it is that they need accomplished, why they need to accomplish, like take ownership of it and then paraphrase it back to them, this is what you’re looking for. This is why you’re looking for it. Right. This is where you’re creating alignment. I can’t tell you how often in this exercise I find that I didn’t get it as they intended it. Mm-hmm. So as I paraphrase it back to them, they’re like, no, no, this is what I meant.

Jason Scott:

Had I left, assuming that I was clear, I would’ve delivered an unexpected outcome. Uh, and we would’ve lost that time. So a can-do approach is, I’m gonna speak it back, I’m gonna paraphrase it back. They’re gonna adjust correct. And when I say, okay, this is what I’m hearing now, and they say, yes, exactly, we have alignment and the expectations are clear because I know exactly what it is I need to accomplish. And more importantly, why as I encounter obstacles to completion, because I understand the why, I can adjust. And so the expectation is simple that I’ll be able to deliver. Hmm.

Andy Kaufman:

I like it. I, I, uh, I took it also as the, what is it we can do bias instead of what is it we can’t do, you know, just trying, trying to show we are here trying to serve you as opposed to all the reasons why something can’t be done.

Jason Scott:

Right. Oh, absolutely. Back to the seven reasons projects fail. Our job as leaders is to look for how we can get something done. Right. And, and part of that process is identifying the obstacles, the roadblocks, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But unless somebody asks you to climb up on the roof and fly <laugh> without an airplane, most things are possible.

Andy Kaufman:

Yeah. Right? Given the, given the resources given time. Well, so what would it take to make it happen? Yeah. And this actually gets to a question that I don’t know. This is just an observation, Jay, that, um, most many people lean projects could really plus one their assertiveness. So in that meeting, repeat, take the initiative to take it back instead of like, well, yeah, I don’t wanna look stupid, so I’ll just assume, you know, the, I I guess my, my experience is we’re often more passive than what we should be. And when tasked with large enterprise initiative, I mean, it can feel daunting and, and people can have the imposter syndrome, you know, wondering if I have what it takes. I mean, these are real feelings that people have. Yet in your book, you remind leaders, or certainly your readers, that leaders are fearless, irreverent, and confident. And so I’m, I’m interested in what you mean, and maybe not mean by those words. And how would you coach someone who’s not feeling fearless or confident, and yet they know that to be effective, they need to plus one that is served?

Jason Scott:

That’s an excellent question. Okay. So I’ll talk about what I mean and what I don’t mean. Yeah. Um, and then I’ll talk about how to kind of get in that space, because the truth is, I don’t, I don’t wake up every morning feeling fearless, irreverent and confident <laugh>. And so I, I think, I think everyone kind of gets fearless. Um, and, and really, I don’t mean be fearless, really truly be fearless, because then you’re gonna be reckless. I mean, have courage, right? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and confidence. I think people get what I mean by confidence. I think it’s easy to misconstrue what I mean by irreverent, because it’s, it’s often used in a negative context. I think people hold irreverence as rude. But if you look at the opposite of irreverence, it would be reverence. And often the way that we, we show reverence is to somebody that we admire or that we respect.

Jason Scott:

And so, I, I think the way that reverence plays out is you encounter someone that you admire, that you respect. Uh, you kind of don’t wanna make eye contact. You’re gonna talk in sort of a soft voice. You’re, you’re not gonna be assertive in that situation. You’re gonna let them be the dominant force in the conversation mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, and that’s great. However, if that’s the energy that you bring to a situation where you’re informing an executive stakeholder about a multimillion dollar blocker, and the solution that you wanna employ to make it go away, you as the leader are setting the wrong tone. They don’t need you to come off reverent in that moment. They need you to come off strong, and they need to feel like you’ve got everything under control. And so, really, uh, what I mean by irreverent is just the opposite of reverence.

Jason Scott:

Bring fearless, irreverent confidence. When you walk into the room, you might not be the, the decider. ’cause the leader’s not always the decider. In fact, when it comes to project leadership, we’re almost never the decider <laugh>, the executive stakeholders decide with the vision for what it is that we’re going to accomplish. The subject matter experts decide how we’re going to accomplish it. But at the end of the day, we are the leader. We are the one that, we are the ones that pull together that team and help them stay focused on achieving the best possible outcome. And so remembering that the leader sets the tone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> when, when things are hard or when things are scary, or when things are not going according to plan, it’s your job to get in that space. Even if you’re faking it, recognize your responsibility to set the tone. Because if you create fear, uncertainty, and doubt, yeah. The team’s gonna flounder. Yeah. The team is gonna flounder and you’re not gonna make the progress that you need to make. And when it comes to impediments or blockers, they don’t get better with age. If,

Andy Kaufman:

If I even make it more personal, Jay, let’s say I, I’m gonna have to guess sometime in the last month or upcoming, you’ve got a situation where you don’t feel as confident and you’re not fear less. Is there anything you like specifically do yourself? And it’s probably related to what you just said, but just to make it personal, like I, I think you come off in your book is like, you are a fearless, here’s the Navy guy. I, we are, we’re conquering Trader Joe’s and all these big clients. But the fact is, I mean, I interviewed a <laugh>, A C E O the night before she took her reign. She googled how to, what to do as a c e O. So what do you do, Jay, when you’re trying to build up your confidence when you’re not feeling that?

Jason Scott:

Another really solid question. Um, well first it’s important to recognize that I’m not there, that I’m not feeling it. There you go. Yeah. Um, like being self-aware is really important. And also a willingness to openly admit where I’m not in the best position to execute on my job. And so I’ll take a minute, I’ll take a couple of minutes, I’ll take what I need. Um, it, it’s, deep breathing is important. It really, you can’t, you cannot be stressed and relaxed at the same time. And so there’s, there’s, I’ll, I’ll meditate for 10 or 15 minutes. Sometimes I don’t have the opportunity to do that in a quiet space. So I’ll sit down in a chair, I’ll put my hand across my stomach, I’ll close my eyes, I’ll try to clear my mind. I’ll take deep breaths until I feel relaxed. And then ultimately, I think probably the most powerful tool for me is to remind myself that we are all just human beings. <laugh>, that we’re all of us, no matter how confident the next person is coming off in their role or their job, they, they might also be having the same day that I’m having. And ultimately, we’re all just people trying to get our needs met. And so, my, my job isn’t to be perfect. My job is just to be the best person I can be in any given scenario. And sometimes that means be the best that I can be when I’m not at my best.

Andy Kaufman:

There you go. Yeah. That’s good. Jay, I, I appreciate you sharing that. You know, um, just to kind of wrap things up today, what are some examples of how the ideas that help make you successful at work spill over to help you succeed as a husband and father?

Jason Scott:

Um, I think realizing that, um, empathy as a leader, well, first of all, leadership isn’t just something that we apply at work, <laugh>, because it’s not a position, right? Like, managers are managers, executives, there’s executives. And those roles kind of come with some degree of authority because you’re hiring and you’re firing and you’re evaluating. Um, but the second you use your authority, you’re not leading. <laugh> authority is the antithesis of leadership. Leadership is inspiring an outcome through influence, whereas, uh, management or being a boss is inspiring an outcome through authority. Um, and you get distinctly different results when people are just doing what they’re told. They’re only as smart as the executive or the manager when you’ve, when you’ve enabled the team to, to create their own roadmap to a shared goal. The team is as smart as the collective IQ of the team. And so, when I, when I think of leadership, a lot of lead leadership is sharing the vision, um, and then listening to what people are hearing.

Jason Scott:

It’s really checking in. Um, it’s really being present when they’re speaking. So my wife or my children, when they’re speaking, it’s turning toward them, as the gottman’s might say, when, when, when my children are, are seeking my attention, I can choose to be busy, or I can choose to turn toward them and give them my attention in the moment. And really recognizing that they’re seeking my attention in the moment makes all the difference in the world. And it’s really no different than your team members, right? We all have our own stuff as leaders, but when you’re leading, it’s important to recognize that leadership isn’t about you, it’s about the team. Yeah. So if you’re playing for the team or your family as the leader, it’s really hard to pause and say, you know what? In the midst of my own stuff, it’s important for me to turn toward you right now because I can see that right now.

Jason Scott:

You need my attention. Um, so I would say that that’s probably the most, the most important thing that, that I apply from my leadership practice at work in my home, is that as the leader or as one of the leaders, I’m not, you know? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Uh, one of the leaders in my household. Yeah. Um, it’s important to recognize when there’s a call for attention and regardless of what I’ve got going on to turn toward my wife or to turn toward my children and get in the moment, get real present. ’cause that’s really what they’re looking for.

Andy Kaufman:

That’s good. Solid answer, man. Or for those listening, if you like what you’ve heard from Jay, check out his book, the Irreverent Guide to Project Management. I’ve put links to the book and the book’s website in the show notes for the cast. So Jay, thank you for joining us on the People and Projects podcast.

Jason Scott:

Thanks, Andy. It’s been fun.

Andy Kaufman:

I hope you enjoyed that discussion with Jay here on episode 2 74. Before we wrap up this episode, just a couple ideas I wanna reinforce from the discussion. Remember that, uh, <laugh> that five by five thing, man, I would love to have a conversation, man. If we were sitting at a coffee shop right now, uh, like he said, half the people are like, you are insane. This will never work. And the other half are like, Hmm, this is intriguing. So I’ve been sharing this in workshops for a couple months now, and I get a lot of that same feedback, but here you see the point, right? You see the point where he’s trying to get to. Too often what we see is project managers and go, well, this is important. They send an email and then they wait a couple days because the person isn’t responding, and we’ve burned a couple days.

Andy Kaufman:

So it’s not something you whip out all the time. But if something is truly a major impediment, consider the five by five. You leave the voicemail. If you don’t hear back, you send the email. If you don’t hear back, I, I like at the half hour mark, you send another voicemail, you send another, and, and, you know, I, since I’ve been trying this out, I’ve never gotten a five either, like we talked about in the episode. But if nothing else take from it that too often we’re kind of passive on this and we’re just waiting for other people to take action. And maybe you can do your version of five by Five, man, I would love to hear what you think about that idea. The other thing I’d love to hear from you about is the take that Jay gave on the need for confidence, his definition of irreverence.

Andy Kaufman:

You know, what I, what I really liked about that point was we need to set the tone. And I think too often project majors go in, maybe sometimes too weak and of like, oh, please. Or, this is kind of what we need to do. And I know maybe, and, and his point is we need to set the tone, and there’s times we really need to show even perhaps, more confidence than we truly have. He actually kind of slipped in the word fake it, <laugh>. And we’ve had some discussion in past episodes about this. There’s times where maybe what I need to do is exude more confidence than I truly feel. Maybe I’m not truly fearless, but his point was, it’s not really about being fearless, it’s much more about being confident. And it’s not about bowing down to this person. It’s, they’re a human. Remember that part of the discussion?

Andy Kaufman:

I love that they’re a human. I’ve had a goal for a while now, not to be nervous in the presence of another human, not because of who I am. Like I’m someone special. Nearly as much as we’re all people, we’re all people, a lot of us with the same insecurities or the same doubts. And listen, I don’t care what their title is, what can we do to help in this situation? And we often need to set the tone with confidence. So I’d love your take on that. And you can go back to past episodes, like with Hermia Ibarra. If you go back to that episode, I’ll put a link in the show notes for the cast. She’s got some good ideas in her episode on that. One of the book. Act like a Leader. Think Like a Leader. I’m telling you, this is a key part for us as Leaders of Projects.

Andy Kaufman:

Well, there are other ideas in the book, and if you like what you’ve heard, I mean, check out Jay’s book. I’ve included a link in the show notes for this cast. I would love to hear from you. You know, you can reach me by email at show at people and projects podcast.com. Let me know your thoughts and your questions from this discussion with Jay.